California InterContinental DBA

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by _T_, Sep 28, 2009.

  1. CurtO

    CurtO New Member

    My research is not done, nor have I offered or referred to it as being conclusive. What you call my research is information I listed that seems include folks that have done well with NA and/or unaccredited degrees.

    Thank you for giving us your findings regarding acceptance of RA distance schools. I will keep this in mind. But, with all due respect, of all the opinions you have offered above on NA degrees, none are conclusive evidence or based on relevant research.

    With that, please allow me ask a follow up question. Since we know at least at least a little bit regarding the acceptance of RA degrees, is there any current relevant research concerning the employrer acceptance of NA degrees?
  2. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I think that experiment might return a lot of false-positives.

    I'm imagining asking a company like Genentech whether they would accept an application from somebody with an American accredited but non-RA doctorate. They are apt to say, in the spirit of open-mindedness, 'Sure, sent us your cv'.

    But that doesn't mean that somebody with a non-RA degree would necessarily be hired. It just suggests that the employer is willing to take a look and see if the educational credentials satisfy their needs.

    A graduate of Rockefeller University, which is accredited by the NY Regents but isn't RA, could easily be competitive, even with top-level RA degrees. But that doesn't imply that a graduate of Miss Clara's School of Hair-Styling and Bioinformatics will be, even if Miss Clara's is DETC or ACICS accredited.

    It's not like employers are going to hire any applicant whose degree has some specified accreditation. Doctoral-level hiring is rarely like that, as far as I can see.

    So it could be that in many cases, the RA advantage isn't a function of the accreditation alone. It's a result of the fact that virtually all American doctoral programs that have strong scholarly and research reputations are RA, with only a tiny handful of exceptions like NY-Regents accredited Rockefeller, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory and the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute. DETC can't field anything that's even remotely in that class.

    Employers might be willing to consider degrees from NA schools, but NA schools might not be producing the kind of degrees that they are willing to consider.
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree, but some schools they tell you up front that they won't consider online degrees. Most of the schools that they responded that wouldn't accept online degrees were Canadian or from the Middle east. May be because in the US there are more law suits, the schools just cover their butts by saying "sure" we can take your CV but the reality is that they wouldn't.

    In conclusion, the acceptability of online RA doctorates without AACSB accreditation is low. My guess is that the acceptability of DETC online DBA degrees is even lower.
    The ROI of an online RA doctorate is questionable so the DETC DBA might be just negative. I think that there are better way to spend time and money for more than just the right to call yourself a "doctor".

    If the ultimate goal is self motivation and just the legal right to call yourself a doctor. I might think that the "state approved" doctorates might just give you that at a lower price and less effort.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2009
  4. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I cannot tell you much about the acceptability of NA degrees for employers but I can tell you about their acceptability for teaching and research. Most RA schools would require at least a RA doctorate or a foreign equivalent.
  5. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    If low cost is the real goal, I would consider the South African degrees or some of the Indian Schools. University of South Africa for example would be considered RA equivalent and would open you the doors for positions where a RA doctorate is required. However, UNISA and many of the foreign degree options are not by any means "easy" options and would require a considerable amount of work as these degrees are meant for prospect academics looking for full time teaching and research careers.
  6. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    I haven't heard of any research on the acceptability of NA doctorates for starting teaching careers in RA schools. (Those are the only employers of interest because that is the only instance in which a doctorate is required.) That would be a difficult sample to draw. However, I imagine the design of such a study in which data is collected from the sample by telephone interview and taped, including measurements with a decibel meter to capture the volume of the laughter of the respondents... ;-)
  7. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Out of these three, which doesn't include all the options, such as the DETC DBA at Columbia Southern, ironically, only CA State-approved / unaccredited California Pacific University has any real track record. That said, today, in 2009, if you didn't have very much money to spend, I'm sure you would have a great experience at California Pacific University, even though it has no utility for teaching. (It might have some utility for showing subject matter expertise for teaching and consulting after being hired with a masters degree.) If you have money to spend (or tuition assistance) and can be admitted to NoCentral, then go there; that's an RA school that seems to be rolling along fine.
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    1. All known research on the subject (Dr. Bear's survey of admissions officials, DETC's own surveys, and my dissertation--others?) clearly demonstrates that DETC-accredited degrees are not as widely accepted as RA degrees. The exact degree to which this remains true is not known, and individual mileage will most certainly vary.

    2. There are a host of work situations in which such degrees would perform satisfactorily. Many jobs now ask for doctoral-prepared employees. Consultants (independent and those working as employees of consulting firms) may often find such degrees utile. Again, it is not known to what extent this is true, but to say that a doctorate from a DETC-accredited school is good merely for personal development is flat wrong.

    3. It is not surprising to find many faculty members with DETC-accredited doctorates. But were they hired on the basis of such degrees? Was the doctorate (a) expected, then (b) accepted from a DETC school? And how many earned their DETC-accredited doctorates after being employed as faculty (on the basis of a master's)? Again, not known, but the doctoral process at DETC-accredited schools is hardly designed for entry into traditional academia. Nor should it necessarily be. (That could be said for most RA DL schools, too, BTW.)

    Not "RA or no Way." Just trying to put a balanced view out there, as are many others.

    Bottom line: DETC-accredited schools are legitimate and the degrees they issue are valid. But degrees from these schools may not always get you were you want to go. How much more this is so than for degrees from RA schools is not known, but there is a difference. As with any degree program, be as sure as you can that the degree you are about to pursue will meet your present and future needs.
  9. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Aren't the DETC doctorates too new to know whether they will be accepted in situations in which a doctorate is not required? (That is, outside teaching.)
  10. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    You are right, the degree might have some utility for some people.
    I can see it helpful for a freelance accountant or business consultant that might use it to attract more customers by using the Dr title on a business card. If you are freelance consultant, it doesn't really matter where you get your degree as all you need is the legal right to use the Dr title.

    Some business certifications give credit for a doctorate. You can get a Certified Financial Planer certification without having to do any extra course work just by having the doctorate.

    It seems to me that the DETC doctorate can work in situations where a legal doctorate is required.
  11. morganplus8

    morganplus8 New Member

    So where are we with this topic? The gentleman wanted to know if CIU was a good "Professional DBA" choice for him, while providing very little meat for his utility/need/use of the degree. For the price, it might serve him well, especially if he isn't leaning toward RA research positions. If he has other degrees and certifications to compliment this degree, it will probably be useful in many applied areas of the business world. Depending on his area of interest, it can open doors to most of the college level teaching positions, and it certainly could enhance his resume within the business world.

    We should all be in agreement that a Professional Degree is not likely to compete directly with an Academic Degree in most academic settings, but it can complete, and I would suggest, satisfy the requirement of an RA research degree, where there is a lack of Academic Degrees within a finite study/focus area, and when a doctorate level degree is required (MBA teaching/instruction opportunities).

    Of course it has utility, and at $ 12,000 it might have tremendous value where salary expectations in business can far exceed those of academic level titles. It would be far more productive to see this learned group of degree-info posters establish what degree offerings hold reasonable value and set the limitations that they might encounter rather than bash NA degrees which are useful in a great number of situations.

    For example, I would hire and pay a great deal of money for an individual who has a securities trading background, an undergraduate degree in Economics, an MBA in Finance, suitable licenses for the trade and a DBA with established research in ECN trading. That person would probably be an expert in their chosen field and highly sought after. Where does the research based RA degree fit in? It is the combination of the educational background (15%), experience in the field (50%) and personality and drive (35%) that makes up the hiring formula, ...... for me anyway.

    I have to believe that there are just as many situations where an RA research degree is basically rendered useless in a business environment. Can anybody give me 100's of examples where your PhD in Business is useless in most business applications? It's rare that a research based degree will find dominate utility in the business world, despite having existed far longer than the DBA model. The DBA is the best choice for the business professional and more business leaders need to pursue that degree. I'll end on a positive note!
  12. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Harvard awards its DBA in several business fields as the only degree available. So I believe the DBA is sufficiently on par with a PHD for academia.

    After following this thread I wanted to comment that there are many reasons for obtaining a doctorate outside of academia. Personal goal is the one that appeals to me most. As someone who was the first to graduate from college (and graduate school) in the family it would be nice to also complete a doctorate. I'm still looking for the one that appeals most to me from modality, content, and price standpoints. I have been following the various NA doctorates coming out and considering whether any of these meet my needs. So long as the degree is legitimate I don't care about utility in academia or the business world. I am on top of retirement so I don't have the same considerations as many of the posters in this thread.

    Because of the pending retirement issue I, for the moment, have placed the doctorate goal in a holding pattern while I consider if it is something that I want to undertake after retirement as a B&M endeavor.

    In relation to the OP's question I think that any doctorate can be used to advantage. We have several examples of folks on this board who have used NA degrees to attain better positions. I believe it is the individual, other qualifications, and position sought that actually will have the larger bearing on success and ROI. But the same can be said of any degree.

    More importantly, considering the utility of the unaccredited and fake degrees it is hard for me to believe that any accredited degree would not bring some return.

    The only caution that I would have to the OP is that you should look at the current accreditation of the school and when it is up for renewal. If you can't finish the doctorate before the renewal of accreditation then you run the risk of the school losing its accreditation and having spent money on an unaccredited degree.

    Just some thoughts.
  13. geoffs

    geoffs Member


    You are forgetting the "snob like nature" of Academia.

    I know one school that has 30 tenured faculty in my field: only 3 have have doctorates (2 are DBA) and they are fine with that....while I know a school that offers the same program 300 miles north and refuses anything but a Ph.D for tenure track.

    Professional Doctorates are great, but Academic Snobs want the Ph.D.
  14. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    You are probably right, however I doubt a DBA from Harvard would be turned down. As with most career fields, I think it boils down to protectionism. In my opinion, as long as folks are realistic with their goals most any doctorate will have its place. I hate to see anyone dissuaded from pursuing higher education because of a few dissenters.
  15. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Possibly, but these situations are very rare, I believe... Moreover, the legality of the doctorate really isn't determined by accreditation in most States, despite the hopefulness of some who have debated the topic.

    Still, I can think of only one situation where a DETC-accredited doctorate might be useful: imagine that an administrator is working in the bowels of the university or in an affiliated research organization and just needs to earn a doctorate for political reasons or donors, etc. The administrator isn't a tenured, voting member of the faculty. The administrator doesn't have time to put up with all the hazing and the "I am smarter than you" pretensions of those who barely understand the research... In this case, the DETC-accredited doctorate might pass muster; I'm not saying that it is acceptable but that one might squeak by with one.
  16. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Not DETC doctorates but I have seen people few people that got state approved doctorates only to be called Drs by their peers and students. Many of the older full time faculty members have only a Master's so they get the PhD just to look at the same level as their peers.
  17. _T_

    _T_ New Member

    Thank you, everyone, for the replies, I appreciate it. So, it appears, that the answer to this question is "It depends on who you ask." With that being said, my search for an affordable RA DBA/Ph.D/D.M. will have to continue.
  18. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Actually, no, the correct answer is still the correct answer, no matter who you ask. And the correct answer is... The DETC DBA has no measurable teaching or research utility at this time (or the foreseeable future), but it might be useful for professional situations (such as speaking at conferences) in which a regionally accredited doctorate or foreign equivalent is not required.
  19. joel66

    joel66 New Member

    One thing I have noticed about DBA degrees is that it's hard to determine what would be accepted unless you went to the school you want to work for and check their qualifications. This is something else I was looking into about possibly going for DBA after I obtain my graduate degree, but after doing my research I'm starting to think against it.

    I checked the regular California State University schools systems and noticed most of them say the following thing:

    "Applicants must have a doctorate in (major specific) from a University accredited by AACSB International."

    Some in accounting positions if they don't have a doctorate would say "An M.S. Accounting and/or MBA with a J.D. (Taxation Emphasis) from an American Bar Association approved school, will also be considered.

    I noticed maybe 2 of the 10 state schools I checked didn't mention AACSB. I can't believe such high requirements for a state college when working full time and considering DBA degree to teach in California State colleges and above. I noticed the community colleges were less restrictive since they require a graduate degree, but there was still variances between the schools.
  20. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    Exactly. Given that this is a DL forum, the assumption is that everyone aspires to wind up in academia.


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