California InterContinental DBA

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by _T_, Sep 28, 2009.

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  1. _T_

    _T_ New Member

    Long time lurker, first time poster here.
    First, thanks to everyone who makes this forum so great, I've learned quite a bit from everyone.

    So I'm about to pull the trigger on the DBA program from the above named school http://caluniversity.edu/. Before I do, I wanted to pick the minds of everyone here simply to make sure that I was not missing anything that makes this a bad choice.

    Thanks, in advance, for any help you can provide.
    Trent
     
  2. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    This is a DETC accredited doctorate. Basically, you will have the legal right to call yourself a doctor but not much value added besides this.

    If your motivation is just to impress your friends or to include the doctor title on a business card as a way to market your self better with customers, then it is a good choice. If your goal is to use it to teach at a Regional accredited schools or to use it for further research opportunities at the post doc level or government institutions, then you are wasting your time.
     
  3. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    Is there a recent CFR rule (or other) that prohibits US Government from accepting NA degrees for employment?
    The reason I ask is that I have worked with DOD contracting staff who had masters degrees from American Graduate University with tuition paid for, in some cases, by DOD. My former employer also paid for and appreciated AGU degrees. So if DOD accepts NA masters degrees why do they not accept NA doctorates?
    I realize that some federal agencies can specify restrictions on what qualifications are acceptable (such for engineering positions).
    Just curious.
    Thanks,
    Ian
     
  4. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    I can't help but think we are being shilled by representatives of this school with a second message over the last few days... Still, I'll bite.

    It's a DETC DBA, which has (almost) no teaching utility in higher education. Hence, the DBA Global Leadership and DBA Entrepreneurship don't really get you too much. However, the DBA Information Systems and DBA Healthcare Management might have some professional utility down the road. That said, all the DBA programs look interesting and informative, even though they offer (little or) no qualification for teaching or research, which is what a doctorate is for... if you will grant me a preposition to end a sentence with.

    What do you want to do with the doctorate, Trent? (Shall I call you, Mr. T?)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2009
  5. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Somehow, I doubt that someone who is pursuing (or thinking of pursuing) an entrepreneurship degree is looking to get a J-O-B as full-time faculty. More likely, they'd be thinking of business ownership, possibly with a little adjuncting on the side.
     
  6. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Ian,

    you are correct that agencies can specify their own restrictions, but, for instance:

    National Security Science and Engineering Faculty Fellowship (NSSEFF)

    states the following in the application:

    "III. Eligibility Information
    1. Eligible Institutions
    Any accredited, U.S. doctoral-degree granting academic institution is eligible to apply. No portion of this BAA is set aside for a specific group. Foreign institutions are not eligible for awards granted in response to this BAA."

    My practical experience is that we give credit for any degree that is recognized IAW the OPM directives. I even use the CHEA database.

    In many instances contractors are competing for awards. I can imagine that in those cases only the best staffing resources will be presented in support of a proposal. If I were a contractor I would not want to spend financial resources on any degree program that wouldn't benefit my company in a competitive environment.

    Just my thoughts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2009
  7. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Point taken. But plans change sometimes. And the DETC DBA won't be accepted as a doctorate. Consider that AACSB Business Schools often pretend that ACBSP and IACBE business school degree holders are "not doctorally prepared", even though they hold regionally-accredited doctorates. Again, the DETC DBA is a solution awaiting a problem; it seems to have no more utility than a State-approved / unaccredited DBA.
     
  8. _T_

    _T_ New Member

    No need for the Mr. T, Trent is fine. Thanks for the reply on this, I'm in no way affiliated with the school, I'm just trying to find an affordable DBA that I can do online. I thought that with the recent DETC accred, that it might be a useful undertaking. My MBA is from a traditional B&M school that cost a fortune which is why I'm trying to find something that is low cost. Looks like I'm limited to TUI for the time being, huh?
     
  9. _T_

    _T_ New Member

    Ted, you've hit it directly on the head. I'm not looking for a tenure track job at any university but I would not mind doing a little adjunct work on the side. However, I can do a lot of that now with my MBA. So is the bottom line here simply if I want a Doctoral degree that is going to serve as anything more than a pretty piece of paper, I need to go RA and just pony up the big bucks?
     
  10. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Have you considered another field for your doctorate? Valdosta State has DPA (limited residency) and Dakota State has a DSC in Information Systems. Both reasonable.

    DPA

    DSC-IS
     
  11. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    As you said, almost no utility. I had seen few DBAs from this school conducting some training here in Canada. This gives them the right to put in their brochures "Course taught by Dr. X".

    I would think that if you want professional development at a lower cost, I would go for a CPA, CFA, CMA or other certification that carries more value than a DBA that is more like a vanity degree.

    Even the RA non ACCSB accredited PhD degrees have little utility but at least can be used for adjunct or community college teaching.

    I think one should look at the ROI of the investment. Yes, a DBA from a DETC school is cheap but almost no ROI so at the end an expensive degree as you cannot make your money back.
     
  12. CurtO

    CurtO New Member


    Dave,

    It sounds like a lot of NA degree trashing goes on here. (And, I ask myself why?) I wonder if it's based on real research, or just negative personal opinions, biases and hunches regarding NA?

    I am interested in perusing: a Northcentral DBA degree program with tuition at about $25,000; one from California InterContinental at around $11,000; or, a DBA from California Pacific University for $5,500. I am currently doing some due diligence on degree acceptances (UA, NA and RA), in order to decide between these schools based on my findings.

    Getting back to your comments about NA (DETC) schools, I like to ask, what do you base that on? Because based on data I've accumulated, NA degrees seem to have served many people just fine in the private sector, government jobs, as well as in teaching at some RA schools.

    As Ian and Kevin have already pointed out how NA degrees are looked at under US Government employment policy is:

    The US Office of Personnel Management - Operating Manual, Qualification Standards for General Schedule Positions: http://www.opm.gov/qualifications/policy/ApplicationOfStds-04.asp

    "Policies and Instructions
    4. Educational and Training Provisions or Requirements
    A. Acceptability of Higher Education for Meeting Minimum Qualification Requirements:
    Accredited and Pre-Accredited/Candidate for Accreditation —This category includes only those institutions that grant academic degrees. Such institutions must meet one of the following criteria for Federal employment:

    Conventional/Accredited Institutions — At the time the education was obtained, the entire institution, applicable school within the institution, or the applicable curriculum was appropriately accredited by an accrediting body recognized by the Secretary of the U.S. Department of Education. Military schools or military educational programs that meet this criterion are also acceptable. For additional information, refer to the U.S. Department of Education web site at http://www.ed.gov. A complete listing of all institutions accredited by recognized agencies, including those located outside of U.S. territories may be found in Accredited Institutions of Post-Secondary Education, a handbook published annually by the American Council on Education (ACE). Institutions located within the United States that have attained accreditation as well as recognized accrediting agencies are listed on the U.S. Department of Education web site at http://www.ed.gov."


    And below are just a few names of California Coast University Graduates listed as faculty on RA websites:

    Marlene Palazzo – Seattle Central Community College
    http://seattlecentral.org/health/faculty.php

    Jim Estes - California State University, San Bernardino
    http://www.cbpa.csusb.edu/mba_program/faculty.htm

    Thomas Depaoli - Walden University
    http://www.waldenu.edu/Colleges-and-Schools/Center-for-Undergraduate-Studies/19617.htm

    Kenneth L. Oakley – The University at Buffalo School of Public Health and Health Professions
    http://sphhp.buffalo.edu/spm/faculty/oakley_kenneth.php

    Anna M. Rizzi - Webster University
    http://www.webster.edu/kansascity/faculty.shtml

    Katia V. Shkurkin - Saint Martin's University
    http://www.stmartin.edu/social_science/womens_studies/faculty.htm

    Lisa Walters - SUNY at Fredonia
    http://www.fredonia.edu/business/businessadministration/walters.asp


    Lets see, with a California Coast University degree these folks landed faculty jobs at: CalState, SUNY, Walden, Webster...

    I've accumulated many, many more examples in my study on the acceptance of different types of degrees in the work place - including a long list of folks working for the government with NA degrees.

    Dave, with all due respect, please point me to your research on this matter. I’d be interested in reviewing it before making up my mind and you’d be helping fellow board members, lurkers, as well as, would be degree seekers.

    Thanks,
     
  13. CurtO

    CurtO New Member

    Dave and RFValve,

    It sounds like a lot of NA degree trashing goes on here. (And, I ask myself why?) I wonder if it's based on real research, or just negative personal opinions, biases and hunches regarding NA?

    I am interested in perusing: a Northcentral DBA degree program with tuition at about $25,000; one from California InterContinental at around $11,000; or, a DBA from California Pacific University for $5,500. I am currently doing some due diligence on degree acceptances (UA, NA and RA), in order to decide between these schools based on my findings.

    Getting back to your comments about NA (DETC) schools, I like to ask, what do you base that on? Because based on data I've accumulated, NA degrees seem to have served many people just fine in the private sector, government jobs, as well as in teaching at some RA schools.

    As Ian and Kevin have already pointed out how NA degrees are looked at under US Government employment policy is:

    The US Office of Personnel Management - Operating Manual, Qualification Standards for General Schedule Positions: http://www.opm.gov/qualifications/policy/ApplicationOfStds-04.asp

    "Policies and Instructions
    4. Educational and Training Provisions or Requirements
    A. Acceptability of Higher Education for Meeting Minimum Qualification Requirements:
    Accredited and Pre-Accredited/Candidate for Accreditation —This category includes only those institutions that grant academic degrees. Such institutions must meet one of the following criteria for Federal employment:

    Conventional/Accredited Institutions — At the time the education was obtained, the entire institution, applicable school within the institution, or the applicable curriculum was appropriately accredited by an accrediting body recognized by the Secretary of the U.S. Department of Education. Military schools or military educational programs that meet this criterion are also acceptable. For additional information, refer to the U.S. Department of Education web site at http://www.ed.gov. A complete listing of all institutions accredited by recognized agencies, including those located outside of U.S. territories may be found in Accredited Institutions of Post-Secondary Education, a handbook published annually by the American Council on Education (ACE). Institutions located within the United States that have attained accreditation as well as recognized accrediting agencies are listed on the U.S. Department of Education web site at http://www.ed.gov."


    And below are just a few names of California Coast University Graduates listed as faculty on RA websites:

    Marlene Palazzo – Seattle Central Community College
    http://seattlecentral.org/health/faculty.php

    Jim Estes - California State University, San Bernardino
    http://www.cbpa.csusb.edu/mba_program/faculty.htm

    Thomas Depaoli - Walden University
    http://www.waldenu.edu/Colleges-and-Schools/Center-for-Undergraduate-Studies/19617.htm

    Kenneth L. Oakley – The University at Buffalo School of Public Health and Health Professions
    http://sphhp.buffalo.edu/spm/faculty/oakley_kenneth.php

    Anna M. Rizzi - Webster University
    http://www.webster.edu/kansascity/faculty.shtml

    Katia V. Shkurkin - Saint Martin's University
    http://www.stmartin.edu/social_science/womens_studies/faculty.htm

    Lisa Walters - SUNY at Fredonia
    http://www.fredonia.edu/business/businessadministration/walters.asp

    Lets see, with a California Coast University degree these folks landed faculty jobs at: CalState, SUNY, Walden, Webster...



    I've accumulated many, many more examples in my study on the acceptance of different types of degrees in the work place - including a long list of folks working for the government and teaching with NA degrees.

    With all due respect, please point me to your research on this matter. I’d be interested in reviewing it before making up my mind and you’d be helping fellow board members, lurkers, as well as, would be degree seekers.

    Thanks,
     
  14. BryanOats

    BryanOats New Member

    This is interesting from the "RA or No Way" thread.

     
  15. morganplus8

    morganplus8 New Member

    CurtO,

    I have been following this thread since its inception and I couldn't help but notice your mentioning of Cal Pacific Uni. I went to their site thinking they must be a "questionable", for profit, institution and stumbled upon this comment in the, "What Students Have to Say: section,

    "I consulted by email with Dr. John Bear about DBA Programs. He recommended yours. - R.S.M. Oak Harbor WA"

    Needless to say, I was floored, did our very own Dr Bear recommend this school? Is it that legit at $ 5,500.00 for a DBA that he would place his name and reputation on the line for this school? This program has to be the least expensive one, even versus the S.A. schools, crazy cheap and Dr Bear in the same mention of those "legit" testimonials ........ hell must of frozen over. LOL

    Can anyone enlighten me on this school or Dr Bear's association?
    Thanks.
     
  16. CurtO

    CurtO New Member

    I'll leave it to Dr. Bear to offer an explanation as to what advice he gave in the past. However, in his defense let me say, even if he did give the school such a recommendation, that was a long time ago and we were in a different place and time back then. And, at one time, the school did have a respectable reputation as a State Approved university. But today, we need more current information to base our school choice on.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2018
  17. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I'm not trashing DETC degrees. If you needed a degree just for a regular job, then the DETC could be an option as many employers accept DETC degrees.

    However, DBA or PhDs degree are a different animal. Career options with a PhD or DBA are limited to research, teaching and consulting. DETC degrees are a hard sell for careers of this type. Even RA degrees from online schools have little utility for this purpose but at least you might be able to get your money back by teaching as adjunct or community college.

    The only reason that I see for a DETC DBA is self improvement. This is a valid reason and if this is the case, the DETC DBA can serve well the interest of many people. However, you cannot fool yourself and think that your DETC DBA will open the doors that before were close.

    In conclusion, I would say that DETC degrees can be an option for master's or bachelor degrees. I have seen people in this forum that got DETC Master's degrees and went for a RA PhD.
     
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Your research is incomplete. The questions here is, how many of these faculty that you cited got their jobs because the DETC DBA?
    A simple research experiment would be to send emails to prospect employers and ask them if they would consider a DETC DBA for a teaching faculty position. I'm sure that you might get some positive answers but only few.

    I have done a similar experiment for a distance education RA DBA. I contacted about 50 prospect employers, about half did not answer and only 5 out 25 responded that they would consider a distance RA DBA. That is about 20% that would consider a distance education degree from a RA school. I'm sure the number will go down to a less than a 5% if you mention that is a DETC DBA but this is a guess so you are welcome to conduct a similar experiment.

    Locating web sites with faculty with DETC is not conclusive evidence as we don't know if these individuals got their jobs because of the masters and just got their DETC DBAs as professional development. Don't forget that 20 years ago, there were not many options so California Coast was about the only decent option for distance learners looking for a doctorate degree.
     
  19. _T_

    _T_ New Member

    These both look like interesting programs but I'm fairly dead set on keeping to a business field. I really like the Doctor of Management from Colorado Tech's Institue for Advanced Studies http://www.coloradotech.edu/Degree-Programs/Doctorate-Degree-in-Organizational-Development-Change.aspx, however, the price tag is well out of my range.
     
  20. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    No substantial disagreement... I would go a little further and I argue that the PhD (or research-oriented DBA) is really only required for one thing: full time college teaching. You can consult without it. You can do research without it. However, you can't really, reasonably expect to land a full-time teaching job at an RA school without it.

    Think guild. By earning a doctorate, you're seeking admission to a guild. DETC DBAs (like some State approved / unaccredited doctorates) are rigorous, useful, and interesting for knowledge-gaining, etc., but you're not being admitted to the guild.

    Now, a more interesting discussion might be should there be tiers in the guild, such as what AACSB schools are doing when they pretend that RA (or online) doctoral degree holders are insufficiently trained to serve in full time, tenure-tracked positions.

    In sum, what some are not understanding is that higher education is predicated upon rule following, but in business you must often break the rules to succeed. Rule following in higher education is often rewarded with accolades, even if the rule is proven dumb by even the most casual observer. However, in business rule following is often punished with unemployment or bankruptcy. Sorry, I've now rambled off the topic...
     

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