BusinessWeek article: For-Profit Colleges Target the Military

EXACTLY! It's strange that there would even be a disagreement about the merits of taking advantage of opportunities that you have available. If I was born 50 years ago with my same circumstances, I probably would have lived my whole life with just a HS diploma. The school I'm in now gives me the opportunity to do something that I wouldn't have otherwise... so I'm doing it!!!

 

The slog to get my MBA from AMU has not been easy. I would rate my own intelligence rather low and I have a hard time retaining everything I have learned.

Most of the courses were very tough for me. I had to read things over quite a bit to make a decent grade. I was hoping that the degree would help me to a better job, but from things I am hearing and reading this degree will be worth about how much I paid for it. Nothing. Its too bad really as I enjoy the school, but....again this is very disheartening.

Now I will need to get another graduate degree from a more prestigious (read traditional B&M school)in order to get a decent job. I'm only going to school to increase my earning potential and I now I wonder what I will have to study?

Man...its really adding up to me in the new year...I thought the new year was supposed to bring hope and a fresh start?

Man, I'll tell you what...walking this black dog does not get any easier when things hit you like this.

 

Maybe Sonic pays well, not so much at Dunkin' Donuts...

However, I wasn't dissing her job. Just a couple years ago I was stuck working at a movie theatre, making barely double-digits per hour as a Certified Projection Operator I'm just saying that her degree doesn't play a factor at all in her current employment, as she was a cashier as recently as a couple weeks ago, even though she's been out of school for nearly 7 months (and with an unrelated DOUBLE major mind you, that is, two fields of work she could be applying for). The job market is bad, and I have noticed a few people with online for-profit degrees posting on other sites blaming their school for their lack-of-employment-woes, when, clearly, almost everybody is feeling the pain right now.

BTW... I agree with your opinion Dunkin' Donuts. They are OK if you are in a rush and just need something to put in your stomach, but they are mostly generic and not nearly as good as anything you could do by yourself at home. Around my place, the DDs serve things like flatbread egg white sandwiches and even pizza.

 

I thought AMU/APU fared rather well in that article.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that online courses are the only option for some people or that their are numerous legitimate options out there. The article specifically refers to UMUC and Oklahoma and the successes some of their military graduates have experienced.

I think the problem is that many of these for-profit schools aren't providing a quality education, they are preying on servicemen and women with limited information, enticing them with free laptops and books in order to get the government subsidies.

With the numerous options for distance education available today I feel people are better served selecting an established not-for-profit institution with a distance education program.

 

Most people here aren't, and neither is the article in question. It was clear that the problem is with the for-profit onlines, not online learning in general- but I noticed in the tone of a couple of the above posts, that the sentiments were spilling dangerously close to dissing online learning as a while.

 

No. Don't let this thread dissuade you from completing and being proud to earn a legitimate degree. Resumes must be looked at in their entirety and while your degree may not land you a job over a Harvard graduate it still is a discriminator, expecially when combined with your experience. The secret is to understand the limitations and make application accordingly. There are plenty of jobs for degrees with lesser pedigree.

Best wishes and keep plugging,

 

I'd avoid UMUC for the same reason I'd avoid APU; UMUC is well known among military circles for catering to servicemembers. Other than that, you have a good point. Arizona State, U of Colorado, Gonzaga, and many more have online programs that allow servicemembers to complete degrees while on active duty without the 'stigma' of a for-profit college.

 

I am trying to imagine an article on Google's new phone based primarily on what people from Apple have to say about it.

 

http://www.umuc.edu/facultyrecruit/recruiters/

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/American-Military-University-bw-2178981005.html?x=0&.v=1

Ouch, you send your recruiters to a conference at which your "substandard" for-profit competitor ends up getting the awards. Yep, that must have hurt.

 

Having worked as an administrator at both non-profit and for-profit institutions I must say that I was disappointed at the sheer volume of flaws in Mr. Golden's Businessweek article. Where can I begin?

--While I am no apologist for the U. of Phoenix, his misrepresentation of credit for prior learning (practiced by about 1/2 of all U.S. colleges and Universities, according to CAEL) as an "associates degree in five weeks of study" borders on either true incompetence or a bias that neutralizes his judgment. What would he say about the state-run TESC and COSC (two of our "Big Three"), that will award a degree based on 100% of work done elsewhere? Or the private Excelsior that does the same thing? They beat even the "evil" Phoenix for accelerated degrees!

--His lumping of all for-profit institutions into the same pot either shows ignorance or, again, blindness by agenda. Not all for-profits act like Phoenix, AIU or Columbia Southern. Mr. Golden is an experienced reporter and author on educational issue, so he should know better.

--For-profit state univerisities that offer short-term sessions lasting a few weeks are commonplace (particularly during summer). Mr. Golden doesn't know this?

--Financial aid fraud is not currently occurring most commonly among for-profit universities, but at non-profit community colleges. Mr. Golden doesn't know this?

--While Mr. Golden has brought up some good points, his parade of DL-ignorant witnesses with their lack of knowledge of decades of research showing the equivalency of learning outcomes between face-to-face and online learners (and his lack of giving any decent quotes to the pro-DL side) shows, once again, that his hatred of schools that do not operate in the red (he has also written a book slamming elite universities) clouds his ability to report. Golden has a BA from Harvard--he should have done his research on online learning, not relying on uniformed opinion as though it were fact.

I am disappointed that Buisinessweek would print such a shabby performance. Unfortunately, some legislator who knows little about DL will likely read it and want to shut down all online programs and for-profit schools.

 

I agree with your assessment of the article. Your last statement is what scares me. Legislators seem to jump on these band wagons in an effort to save the world.

The passages above from the article really bothered me. The fact that the author used this story as a case-in-point against for-profits is asinine. Mr. Daun left the Navy as a lieutenant commander, nuclear engineer and can't find a job so he blames it on his choice of school for an MBA. Get real! I'm no fan of AIU, but I suspect Mr. Daun has other issues he's not telling the reporter besides his AIU MBA. If Mr. Daun suspects that his AIU MBA is holding him back, then he should leave it off his resume. You’re a big boy Mr. Daun, so act like one.

 

I agree with the above. You don't get to be a Nuke officer on a submarine by being dumb. It is HARD schooling they put you through so he shouldn't have ANY problem getting a job, with or without an MBA. There is something missing from the story.

In addition, I think we tend to have a skewed view of the value of certain degrees here on this board because we all have pretty deep knowledge of the subject. If you want to work at the top 1% of companies in the world that have 50 applicants for every opening then yes, you'll probably need a top MBA. For most people, however, hiring decisions are made based on fit as well as job experience. Having an MBA certainly helps too but it doesn't have to be from Harvard to get most jobs that require that sort of experience/degree.

To the person working on their MBA from AMU: Yes, that degree alone will not open all doors for you, especially those leading to jobs making 6 figures at top Wall Street banks, etc. but it WILL still give you the experience and education you need for most other jobs. The degree alone won't get you a job, you need to pair it with experience as well as a good solid interview. AMU is a good school, but not a top school. Don't let people here convince you that your effort and education was wasted, however. Most hiring people have no idea about colleges and only care if the school is regionally accredited.

 

Anthony,

Goes to show that being a Harvard pedigree graduate doesn’t automatically equate to savvy… Of course those who ever believed that it did … well (?). Regrettably, there are those who are so very easily swayed to-and-fro; moreover there is nothing new about politicians
jumping-on or off the latest headline bandwagon.

As far as the retired Marine Colonel (Mr. Shields), now HR director for Schindler Elevator U.S. North American division, whose department is non-considering of online for-profit military degree holders for management positions purely because the degrees were awarded by for-profits … well I’m thankful he’s (Shields) now retired from the military. He may believe in this philosophy and/or bias – but I’m amazed he would actually state this publically as a Schindler representative and for publication; very telling!

 

Fightin' words!

I first encountered Krispy Kremes as a pimply faced private at Fort Jackson SC. My reaction was then - and to this day - is that Krispy Kreme's are a pale, fluffy, anemic comparison to the sublime moment that is contained in the Dunkin Donuts' Boston Kreme.

 

Heresy I say. You have never eaten a Luther Burger. Perhaps the absolute best of the Krispy Kreme variations:

Luther Burger

Let's see Dunkin top that! (whatever happened to Winchells ?)

But Texans always have to do it bigger:

Texas Donut

 

You sir, are simply wrong. I defy you to find an offering from Dunkin Donuts that compares to Krispy Kreme's Chocolate Iced Kreme filled doughnut. Silly Yankees....

 

Most of the articles that I read about the evils of for-profits are based on actions that I have also seen at non-profit schools during the past two decades.

I have known employers that "filter out" online degrees from both for-profit and non-profit schools and B&M degrees from certain for-profit schools.

I have also known employers who filter out B&M degrees from "lower-ranked" state universities, church-affiliated universities (no matter how highly regarded), southern univerisities with high minority populations, universities that are "too liberal," universities that are "too conservative" and universities that they just don't like (e.g. the ones that beat their alma mater in the last bowl game). It is a subjective process and the fact that Mr. Golden ignores this in his article is just one more fatal flaw.

 

Keep in mind that this article was specific to distance learning in the military. The author could have touched on all of the talking points you've mentioned here, but all of them would fall outside the scope of the topic.

I have read Mr. Golden's book The Price of Admission. In that book he was very critical of admissions processes at elite schools, especially Harvard, Brown, Duke, UVA and Notre Dame.

My point is that he isn't the close minded, Ivy League educated elitist some of the members of this forum are painting him to be.

 

We agree then. Real or imagined and whether people on here acknowledge it or not...the perception for most people (we post in a bubble here a dinfo.com) is that an online degree is of lesser value than a B&M degree: FACT. Even with all of the qualifiers we (meaning you and I) put into it, for the common folks they view most online degrees in the vain that the author of the article does.