Bill Would Let Agencies Hire Workers with Alternate Credentials

Excellent point. Also, congratulations on finishing the BA! For some reason I hadn't noticed your sig until now. The multi-degree club is a sweet place to be. Next stop, this list: The 10 Most Educated People on the Planet - Online Colleges

 

Yes, that is my underlying point. An NA degree is not as valuable (perceived, actual, etc)as an RA degree. Some schools are better than others, period. There are probably hundreds of schools better than Washington State University but I don't have to trip over myself if someone holds a lesser opinion of the school I graduated from. It has (or should have to you) no bearing on your own perceived utility of your NA degree. That some random person's opinion on the internet thinks your education (assuming you have an NA degree I don't know) is somehow inferior to an RA degree? Well you can/should dismiss it with a hand wave. That's how it works.

I'm not trying to offend, but some schools are better than others. Just like some people are better than others, some cars are better than others, some cities are better than others, some countries are better than others, some movies are better than others, some women are better than others, on and on.

As a whole RA is superior to NA just like Harvard is superior to WSU. Becuase I have a degree that holds a lesser value in many peoples eyes than someone with a Harvard degree does not mean I don't value my own degree from WSU. Other's opinions of your degree should not shake it, and if it does it shows that you are aware of the perception that the degree is of lesser value and that it bothers you.

 

Utility is a completely separate argument from quality. But your opinion appears to be based primarily if not entirely on quality. You say that some schools are better than others, which is true. But you at the same time—based on your words—can't conceive of the idea that some NA schools are actually better than some RA schools. You don't see anything wrong with that picture?

If a person wants to cling to the idea that judging things on an individual basis is an invalid approach, then so be it, but let's not forget all of the ills of our society that are born from that way of thinking.

Holding degrees from both RA and NA schools, I find that thinking to be limiting, and I at least hope your view in particular wasn't formed without ever having taken a single NA class like, unfortunately, most people who hold your view never have. I find it funny though, because having taken many classes at a number of different NA schools over the years, I found the course materials, design, and the instructor' credentials to be comparable. The only difference between many RA and NA programs I found were who they were accredited by.

I don't know where this idea came from that RA schools are serving filet mignon and all NA schools are serving whatever leftovers are out back in the dumpster, but quite frankly it's nonsense that's not based on the average of reality.

 

NA schools are mostly for-profits and unranked. Also most if not all do not hold specialized accreditation for specialized fields. Some companies and some state level government jobs or lower do not recognize it as valid. A NA grad degree holder can't teach at RA school's but a RA grad degree holder can teach at both RA and NA schools. These are just a few reasons why NA schools are considered lesser.

 

You are correct a restriction does not exist but NA professors being hired at RA schools isn't something I've heard happening. The perceived quality of NA degrees is lower so the utility is also lowered.

 

The US Census Bureau reports that as many as 1 in 4 working adults have alternative (non-degree) credentials, such as professional certifications and certificates from tertiary learning programs. That increases to 40% for bachelor's holders, with pretty impressive numbers beyond that.

Of course, there are no standards for these things, they don't mean the same thing to different people, and they don't proactively address the human resource development requirements of a nation in transition. The report: https://www.census.gov/prod/2014pubs/p70-138.pdf

 

With respect, I find that to be meaningless. There are non-profit schools with problems, and I'm sure there are some ranked schools with their own issues.

I'd say "few" companies. The number of people getting hired every day with fake credentials is a perfect example of how so many employers aren't knowledgeable about accreditation the way we are here, and that slip-through is unfortunate of course.

I do a lot of contract work and it requires a degree. One such degree I use for my field is NA. In all of these years, I've never been rejected because of it. To be honest, I've never even had a discussion about accreditation with anyone who has hired me to do a project.

I'm fully aware of the perceptions and of the real actual limitations that exist. I'm not arguing against them. I simply don't agree with the "one step up/down" concept in this particular arena to make comparisons between accredited programs and unaccredited programs and diploma mills. I don't like where the concept is born from. I've heard the same school of thought applied to Massage Therapists "It's just one step up from a prostitute" or with Medical Doctors/Pharmacists "It's just one step up from a drug dealer." I don't find it fair.

 

I'd say "lots of companies." And since I'm the only one who has ever measured it (in my PhD dissertation), I think I know. But I didn't ask a simple yes/no question. I made a comparison of many forms of institutional recognition. Accreditation by DETC made a degree way less acceptable, like a 6 on a scale of 10 (with RA being 10). It was near the unaccredited categories of "State Authorized" and "State Approved."

Things may have improved in the years since, but I bet not by much. DETC isn't any better known, but DL is more acceptable. And while you may not have experienced the conversation, you also have no idea how many times your resume may have been tossed out without your knowledge.

DETC's own research continues to show a lagging acceptance of degrees from their schools. Who am I to argue?

 

Yes, I believe you informed me about the DETC data in another discussion some time ago. But what about:

Association for Biblical Higher Education Commission on Accreditation

Association of Advanced Rabbinical and Talmudic Schools Accreditation Commission

The Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada Commission on Accrediting

Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools Accreditation Commission

Accrediting Bureau of Health Education Schools

Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges

Accrediting Council for Continuing Education and Training

Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools

Council on Occupational Education

Distance Education and Training Council Accrediting Commission

National Accrediting Commission of Career Arts and Sciences, Inc.

I'm sure that was true years ago before getting into the career I'm in now. But now, I actually have an exact idea: I don't submit resumes anymore. Companies generally approach me on their own because I am considered an expert in my field with a very strong track record and an extensive list of published credits in consulting roles. If a project presents itself that I want to pursue on my own without having been approached, I usually know who to speak to directly because I've more than likely had contact with them in the past as my industry doesn't have so many heads that it wouldn't be possible... and that has its pros and cons.

I should point out that having the field-specific degree was the first step to getting in as no one would've hired me without it, but it being NA didn't prevent me from getting in. None of my RA credentials would've gotten me in just because none of them are in the field. I only applied to the one project at the time and it worked out. Once I was in and made my credits, having a degree at all became a non-issue altogether as the credits took precedence.

 

This isn't a measurement of quality, but NA vs. RA makes a difference in my field in Texas. I just learned that Texas DPS will only accept degrees and credits from RA schools. That's another agency to add to my list of agencies my students can't use their degrees for being hired or educational incentive pay. They also won't get credit towards higher levels of certification from the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement. This has led to many uncomfortable conversations with my students, especially when I have to explain to them that there are only two universities in the area that will accept their credits; and, they're both for-profits with bad reputations. For some reason, they aren't very open to online education even though that would expand their options.

 

I look at it like this. If I, through direct or indirect action, can influence the value of my product in the markets, I would be remiss not to take every advantage to do so offered.

 

I already contacted the Bexar County Sheriff's Office about their ignorant policy on "internet degrees." I also contacted the San Antonio Police Department to ask them how come they don't give educational incentive pay for NA degrees. I never received a response from either one of them.

 

What about them? There's no reason, generally, to think they're any different. (I didn't parse your list.) It's a categorical thing. RA, NA, etc.

I've not experienced any real differences between NA agencies. But in my dissertation, I included two. The levels of acceptance of DETC and ACICS were different to a statistically significant level. ACICS was higher before descriptions of each were provided. DETC was higher after descriptions were provided.

While these general measurements can be informative, there is, IMHO, a tremendous amount of variability exists in individual situations.

That makes sense. I think when you're having a conversation with a decision-maker, the differences we're talking about aren't that important. It's when someone doesn't know you and is making a value judgment about your education without you that these kinds of categorical exclusions can occur.

The less you are, the more the degree matters. The more you are, the less it does. Or something like that.

 

After working at a school accredited by ACICS, I don't have a very high opinion of it. It seems like many instructors who have taught at ACICS/ACCSC schools have had the same experience as I have.

 

ACICS, like DETC, is rooted in trade school accreditation. I'm convinced this affects their standards and outcomes.

 

This is true in any field; however, the issue is the substance/rigor/utility of a degree.

 

Fwiw

I try not to get involved in the whole RA/NA debate because I have an obvious bias. However, I feel that my work experience may shed some interesting light on the discussion at hand.

Rich, your dissertation research sounds fascinating. However, one thing strikes me right off the bat. You asked a question of employers that job seekers do not ask. When a person applies for a job, they list their degrees. They do not list their school's accreditation. While it is possible that an HR representative or hiring manager is going to check out the school and verify its accreditation, that is very unlikely. I've worked since 2005 in Human Resources. The first six years of my HR experience was in staffing. Part of that job was verifying resume and application data. Work experience verifications were common, but degree verifications were not. Even companies who outsource background verifications do not verify accreditation. Two prior employers used such services and accepted copies of the diploma (not transcripts) as sufficient proof of graduation.

But that anecdotal evidence doesn't really say much. But two years ago I sat on an inter-company committee to survey businesses about compensation, benefits and recruiting strategy. Of those companies surveyed, 73 responded to the recruiting piece in areas relevant to degree standards. Of the 73, 12 stated that they actually verified academic qualifications and six of them stated that they required transcript copies. Of those twelve, only five stated that they had established policies on accreditation. I can't speak to the other four, but my company was one of the respondents. Our policy on accreditation is that we don't allow tuition assistance for NA degrees unless the program also possesses programmatic accreditation leading to licensure (when the license is relevant to the company). For example, if you found an NA degree which led to licensure as a CPA in New York, you'd be OK. However, our company's list of company relevant licenses is largely limited to law, accounting and engineering. So effectively, we won't pay for an NA degree except in very limited and specific circumstances. However, there is nothing that says you can't "use" your NA degree at work. We have a number of people with NA degrees (including me with my MSM from UMT). We've also actively recruited people who have NA degrees.

When recruiting, the degree is one part of the overall picture. In many circumstances, degree accreditation is sort of moot. If we are hiring a tax accountant and we get an applicant with a Bachelor of Accountancy from say, any SUNY school, who also possesses a CPA and years of experience, his Masters in Taxation from Taft isn't going to hurt his (or her!) chances at the job. HR does not lay out all applicants and say "All right, we have three applicants with a nationally accredited degree and one with a regionally accredited degree, I think the choice is clear." However, about two weeks ago I did have a hiring manager tell me he wasn't interested in a candidate who graduated (B.S.) from American InterContinental University because he visited and their website and felt the school was "a joke" (FYI: he has a masters from Capella).

So there are a few things at play. More and more people are taking advantage of online education. My company, for example, loves Capella and wouldn't blink if you wanted to use tuition assistance to attend one of their programs. However, they have a very severe bias toward the University of Phoenix. I've also seen people react more strongly toward, what they consider to be questionable degrees, at the bachelors level and less at the masters level.

For me, my employer is aware of my NA degree and very supportive (they didn't pay for it, I used the last few dollars of my expiring GI Bill) of it. They even offered me a free day off to attend commencement in June if I wanted to. They were especially happy that my program is accredited by PMI since we are big believers in the PMP certification. I think if you present all of the objective data to an employer, you are likely to see many tend toward "not accepting" NA degrees. But these degrees aren't being presented as a survey on accreditation or recruiting standards. They are presented as a few lines on a resume which may otherwise be impressive with work history, certifications and licenses.

I think a lot of people really want to say it is as simple as RA versus NA, but in reality, hiring decisions are not so cut and dry. I'm not saying any of this in an attempt to "validate" my MSM. I really couldn't care less what a bunch of people on a message board think about it. My employer is happy with it, I'm happy with it and I have an interview as an adjunct at a community college to teach in the fall. I'm certainly not trying to diminish Rich's research. I'm saying all of this because it is tempting to use narrow quantitative data to try to draw some pretty broad conclusions and I just wanted to throw a few nuggets for further discussion into the mix.