Anyone have input on the University of London's International Programmes? (Online)

I agree with this. I would venture that the policy is largely political. I have noticed that in DL programs that are associated with prestigious institutions (as one could argue with UoL), there can be a certain amount of "nimbyism". There are some historical threads in this forum that go on and on about whether one can rightfully claim one's degree is from LSE, say, if one graduates from the external (now international) program, where LSE is the lead college. Many have argued that since external students often don't satisfy the same entrance requirements as internal students, then it's misleading to claim a degree from LSE. In the same thread, you will find others that argue that external students also cannot claim a degree from the University of London, since it technically makes no sense, as UoL is composed of constituent colleges. It would be tantamount to claiming a degree from the University of California, which would beg the question, "Which campus? Berkeley, LA, Riverside etc.?" Of course this leaves the external student between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Let's see, not a graduate of LSE, not a graduate of UoL generally - not a graduate of anything? The answer of course is that the external program is a bit of a unique animal. It's a little bit of both sides of the coin.

A similar debate has popped up in this forum concerning the Harvard Extension degrees. Internals complain that externals are earning a degree through the back door. Externals argue that they're held to the same standards and have to work just as hard. Internals argue that may be true, but you wouldn't have gained internal admission in the first place,... and you get the idea.

On the particulars of math/econ within the external program, I can offer some input. My BA is in math, and I did an MSc through UoL in finance. I have been teaching math for 6 years now. I have looked at the math/econ BSc, as well as the grad diploma in math. To be sure, the math is rigorous. I wouldn't condemn UoL for the materials or the methods in those programs. First, as I mentioned, they have pulled no punches as far as the rigor of the math. Second, UoL is one of the few schools/programs that offer an option in DL math, probably because it is a very hard subject to do at a distance. There are precious few undergrad programs, and only a handful of MSc programs in math. Univ of Washington, Columbia, Univ Houston, and Texas A&M all offer MS degrees in math - generally applied math. These tend to involve a bit more hand-holding than UoL, perhaps with good reason. There was a thread not that long ago in this forum where the OP wanted to find a math PhD program at a distance. That comes as close as anything I can think of to being nearly impossible to do at a distance. I cannot even conceive of it, though I certainly admire his courage in even considering it.

Finally, I wouldn't fret too much about the sequence of UoL's program, and how it differs from the US. One of the growing trends in math teaching, is that you present the math when it appears naturally in the problem-solving process. This has been done in Europe and Asia for decades, and is now catching on as something novel in the US, where before we presented everything (especially in high school) in a very linear fashion: First some algebra, then it's time for a year of geometry, then back to algebra, then some trig etc. You don't need a complete background in differential equations before you use a small bit of it to solve a problem. That's the thinking, and I think that it works pretty well - although I admit that it can be a source of anxiety for a while.

 

It depends on what you mean by "original major." Back in the 1970's, as a traditional student at a traditional university, I was a fine arts major. I dropped out before getting a degree. I eventually found my way into a job that requires daily use of statistical information. Before entering the UofL program, I took a Precalculus Trigonometry course at the local community college. I also took Intro to Microeconomics, and Database Management, at the community college.

I entered the Mathematics and Economics program at U of L. Didn't do well. I will start the program for the BA in Mathematical Sciences online at UIS in the fall... they require a three-course calculus series before entering the program, but they do offer Calc III online. So I went back to the community college and took Calc I and I'm halfway through Calc II right now. I would take Calc III at the community college as well, except they don't offer it at night.

As for how I like it so far: well, I haven't actually taken a course at UIS yet, but everyone has been very helpful. I've managed to earn an "A" in every course I've attempted at the community college. The math classes have been traditional classroom courses, the economics and database management courses were online using Blackboard, so I think I'm well prepared for the online program at UIS.

Edited to add: If you have taken linear algebra before, you probably are much better equipped to handle mathematics at this level than I was. I suspect you'll do well.

 

Yes, obviously I'm compensating for your post.

Fine line between defensive and comprehensive.

Fine line between being direct and on the attack.

Nuff said, good luck with your search.

 

Thanks Tom57. I agree with your answer about the current trend in math teaching. I think they call it "justi-in-time" learning. They feel that the relevancy of the information when you need it will stick with you longer. When you learn it with no end-goal it seems useless, therefore, it doesn't stick with you. Math, is actually the best demonstration of that and Socratic learning. You have to do it to understand it. Thanks. Helpful post.

 

Thanks GeeBee. I guess, when I start my Math and Econ course, the materials and support might be a bit more different than what you went through. From reading other forums and posts with past students, the support seems to be more and more every year. Trust me, me having linear algebra under my belt may not be that much of an advantage. I took it 10 years ago and might as well have forgotten all of it. I'll see how this goes. I'm both excited and scared. The reason being: I will work hard, but it's the fear that working hard is not enough and that there might be some other tips and tricks that distance people may not know about. Then again, this may just be competitive-anxiety. Good luck in your schooling. If you tackeld both Calc 1 and 2 with As, you're well on your way to success. Math is math, and your foundation seems solid.

 

JFO, for the interactive resources are you referring to the Virtual Learning Environment? Also, I've heard the range of 15 hours to 50 hours a week for the Math and Econ course. Is this more of a scare tactic or is it just from some people who might've bitten off more than they could chew (people who don't have sufficient math backgrounds or last minute cramming)?

Thanks for the heads up on your study technique.

 

I am not sure what you are unable to grasp about this situation, but there is no discrimination in this situation whatsoever. As has already been explained to you, there are a variety of reasons why the GRE/GMAT may be required of external applicants. This additional requirement in no way suggests that UoL External degrees are not accepted, nor does it suggest that they are inferior in anyway.

Graduate programmes are almost always writing intensive, and external degrees do not assess writing. There are not submitted papers to be assessed. Your final marks are earned completely by way of your exams. While your writing is marked to varying degrees by the examiners, it is not done so in the way internal students are continuously assessed throughout the their degree. As such, it is no surprise that graduate programmes ask to see proof of your ability to not only comprehend complex arguments and topics, but to right coherent and well argued compositions, as well.

That, my friend, is why the GRE/GMAT is often required of external degree applicants. There is no evidence of their writing ability, and they are asking for evidence.

 

The amount of time that needs to be allocated to the course will vary from person to person, but it shouldn’t be more than 10 to 15 hours per week. I consider that if you start studying for Math 05a at least 10 months prior to the exam, 8 hours per week during the first 4-5 months should be enough. This approach would give you plenty of time to review each of the guide’s 8 units as well as a few months to spare for reviewing the material.

There are a few things that you need to bear in mind when taking UoL’s Math 05a: a) it is a course tailored to people that will continue to careers in finance and/or economics, b) to do well on the exam, more than 50% of your time should be dedicated to problem solving; c) UoL traditionally sets the date for examinations of Mathematics 05a, Statistics 04a, and Economics 02 to take place during the same week – usually one day off between exams.

If you are studying for these three units, you might not get sufficient time to “recover” from one exam to the other. Of course some people do prefer this approach. UoL does this to minimize the cost incurred by students that need to travel in order to take their exams.

As mentioned earlier on this thread, UoL is becoming more interactive with its students. For this specific course, VLE offers you the following: sample final examinations from the last 3-4 years, mock examination papers, and teaching videos for specific sections from almost every unit. It also has a virtual community where students create their own “virtual study groups” to review the material together and support each other. These groups are extremely useful to clarify doubts and polish your problem solving skills, and group members may share material that will help you better understand all the concepts.

Besides the VLE, you can find on the Internet many online videos that help you better understand the material presented on the guide (check DegreeInfo’s thread on Online Free Courses). Prior to going into each unit, I would review videos related to the subject to be covered to get a better understanding of what’s ahead. I admit that since my last math course was over 20 years ago, I ended up watching a lot of algebra, trigonometry and calculus courses prior to starting with the guide’s material as I needed to remember some basic principles. Once I refreshed all that material, delving into the guide felt like the natural progression of things.

The bottom line for successfully completing this degree (as it is with any DL course) is time management. Based in my experience, trying to complete three full units in a year is almost a full time job since I do travel frequently, which limits the time that I have available to study.

Hope this is helpful.

JFO

 

JFO, EXCELLENT response. Thanks for the extreme detail and your inputs on what has changed and what has helped. I think this puts some of my "performance anxiety" to rest. Then again, some "anxiety" is always good to keep people on their toes...positive stress. ;-)

Even though they have yet to send a response to me, I've already started to download some of their public materials that are available and I'm basically looking at the study guides and seeing what topics are or aren't familiar. I think a lot has changed in the past 3 years from what I can read from the various forums and your response. They seem to be very responsive to student needs.

So, going off of your recount of back-to-back exams for Mathematics 05a, Statistics 04a, and Economics 02, I was thinking of an exam schedule for the first year as Mathematics 05a, Mathematics 05b, and Economics 02. Then, the next year, I take the Statistics 04a and Statistics 04b exams. I can totally see where the logic is coming from for the diversity of the exams...meaning, you're not taking the same topic in a row for a more advanced exam. But, other than the explicit prerequisites that are listed for each course, does each course refer to the other. You said that 50% of it is problem solving. This is what I mean, for Economics 02, will they say things like "You remember the differential equations covered by Martin Anthony, these are the equations used for these techniques..." And, therefore, this gives the reason why Mathematics 05a, Statistics 04a, and Economics 02 should be taken together.

Thanks again for your response.

 

As I said before, I'll wait for UoL's answer on this. And, there is no problem with me "grasping" anything. The answers are only speculation at this point. I understand the answers you're giving me and they basically just support a convoluted statement of: Yes, the degree is not earned at the same standards. I basically asked, "Is the degree the same standard? If not, what's different about it? You basically answered, "Yes it's the same standard, but they don't have the same standard for writing." You basically answered the question by saying the degree is not to the same standard, but it's still the same degree (So, which is it?). If internal students earned their degree through writing assessment, then external students should have the same when earning their degree.

I also highly doubt that the exams don't have any writing being tested to the same degree. If you're writing is horrible, then you probably won't pass the exams also.

I think my question is closed and I'll just wait for someone who has authority on this to answer me back from UoL.

 

Excellent idea. You get terribly defensive when anyone on this board says something you don't like.

 

..awaits vastly intellectual response on not being defensive that has something to do with over 1000 years worth of experience in academia (on the forum) not knowing what they're talking about..

 

Yes, yes, yes. I like the comradery between you two. I won't stoop to that level. You can think whatever you want. Your comments speak for themselves. To clarify, if you still haven't understood me the first time: There's a very big difference between what I "want" to hear versus "what is a satisfactory answer." I don't care if UoL says, "Yes, the degree is inferior and that's why we require extra testing." Most of your answers are to the line of "Yes, it's the same, but different." It should be a very binary answer. If it's not the same standard, then it's not the same standard. I'm simply asking that because they contradicted themselves by saying, "This is the same degree as an internal UoL degree." And, then on another page, they treat it differently.

It's like me asking, "So, this car goes 100mph?" And, you answering back, "Yes, it goes 100mph, but it's a little slower." If that example isn't clear, I don't know what is.

So, let's just get back to the topic of UoL. I'm not blaming you if you can't answer it. I thought this was an educational forum for people to openly ask questions and get them answered.

And this response to your friend, "..awaits vastly intellectual response on not being defensive that has something to do with over 1000 years worth of experience in academia (on the forum) not knowing what they're talking about.." I have no idea where you got that from and where you're coming from. When did anyone mention they had a vast experience in anything? Again, arguing for the sake of arguing.

Again, I'll be happy to share the information I have when I get it from UoL. If you two (AUTiger00 and ITJD) would like to answer back in a constructive manner and debate constructively, I'm happy to do so.

 

I was referring to the Mathematics and Statistics course when talking about the 50% of your study dedicated to problem solving… Economics exams are not like that. The guide provides you sample exams and the VLE also provides copies of past years examinations so you have a better sense of what to expect during the official examination.

JFO

 

You're replying so by definition you're doing exactly what I expected and are operating on "that level". As far as comradery goes thanks for associating me with AU. That's a step up for me as far as I'm concerned.

You keep saying you're clarifying. Trust me, we understand you. I just think you're silly. AU can use his own terms if he chooses.

I'll bet a case of pop (tonic, soda) that you will not get an answer from UoL other than to say the test is a requirement and their methods are beyond reproach. Truthfully, posing the question at all may be considered rude.

This said, I wish you luck (as I have before) and no doubt that there are some moderators here that are wholly surprised that I haven't used profanity or my varied catchphrases on your ass yet.

Ah patience.

Best,
ITJD

 

. . . Yet?:arg:

 

Sgelam, all I did was agree with your statement about waiting for someone with the authority to answer your question. In fact, I believe I told you it was an excellent idea.
The second part of my statement was simply stating the fact that anytime someone posted a reply you didn't like you got upset. You can begin reading this thread from the beginning and clearly see that that is the case.
Best of luck and try to control your emotions when the UoL rep gives you what you deem to be an unsatisfactory reply to your question. I have a feeling you're not going to be happy with what they tell you.

 

Kiz, you know we share a unique, platonic and "slightly creepy" online love for each other.

Seriously. I'm trying this new thing called listening to Kizmet. It's working for me thus far.

 

:flowers1: You silver tongued devil, you're just saying that because you know I'll ban you. :flowers1:

Thanks for listening. :cool3:

 

You may want to consider whether or not you have the analytical and reasoning skills necessary for postgraduate study, especially postgraduate study with no instruction and little communication. You seem unreasonably dependent and need people to walk you through relatively simple matters such as this. If you are having this much trouble interpreting the situation before you, I can only fathom how lost you will be once you begin your course. I mean this with all due respect. I believe some serious self-reflection is needed.