Andersonville

Bill:
And a talent for omission? From pages 100-106 of the catalog, some faculty schools you did not mention: Tennessee Temple, Jackson College, Baptist Bible College, Liberty University, Troy State University, Boston University, Assembly of God Theological Seminary, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, UCLA, Talbot Theological Seminary, Claremont Graduate School, Bishop College, Midwestern Baptist Seminary, Dallas Theological Seminary, Union College, University of Texas, University of Nebraska, John Brown University, Wheaton College, Northwestern, Evangel College, Cal State, LA, Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, Soong Sil University (Korea), Jung Ang University (Korea), Texas Wesleyan College, Texas Christian, William Tyndale College, Michigan State University, Western Michigan University, Mercer University, Lutheran Southern, University of South Africa, Ottawa University.

Be critical if you want, but at least tell the whole story.
For example, you mention Arkansas Biblical Graduate School (which I know nothing about but assume is not Harvard) but you fail to mention that Mal Couch, the holder of that degree graduated from John Brown, has an MA from Wheaton, and a 125 semester unit Th.M. (clearly equivalent to any doctoral degree) from Dalllas Theological Seminary, and has about thirty boooks in publication.

The schoool clearly states that it is not accredited. If in the past they breifly held ACI accreditation, they very quickly wised up and dropped it. They have not applied for recognized accreditation and are very up front about it. They have made great strides under Neal Weaver. The school has never been in a financial position to seek accreditation, nor do I think they were ever unanimous in wanting it. Now that the BBFI seems set on a course of accrediting their schools, I think LBU willl, in time, get it.
This is not a business impersonating a school; it is a honest effort to provide Christian education via a DL format.

LBU is not yet a great school, but it is a goood one, and getting bettter every year. Why not give them something of the benefit of the doubt? Like you they are sincere Christians and at least deserve not to be damned by omission.

When it comes to integrity and character I would telll you LBU is pretty strong.


Blessings

 

damning by omission and not telling the whole story

Hello Craig

You didn't tell the whole story about Mal Couch either, did you?
Don't I say, "Then glancing through other faculty degrees we find their DOCTORATES..." Then I list Couches doctorates: ThD Louisiana Baptist Seminary, PhD Arkansas Biblical Graduate School. Yes, Couch has a masters, a ThM, from Dallas! You say that equals a doctorate and you are correct as to the time involved. It is four years of grad study, two languages, and thesis. AS to how many books he has written I'll take your word for that. But you didn't mention Couch's other project either. (at least as of 1999 ). Doesn't Mal still run the Tyndale Seminary in Fort Worth? Isn't that the one that offers ThDs as diplomas and says that to be accredited in Texas a school must be liberal or secular so that's why Tyndale isn't accredited? Isn't Couch's Tyndale the school that in 1992 proclaimed they would be accredited then when it didn't pan out they sought ACCTS? Isn't Tyndale the school that has various scholars make tapes then lists these as faculty members? Is now mentioning this removing the damning of which you speak?

Craig don't I in my second paragraph refer to the supervisors of programs? Then do I not proceed to demonstrate that NONE of these have accredited doctorates? Doesn't that seem strange to you? Is that what you are upset about? You don't think this is in the least bit damning, is that right?

Oh but you are correct. I did not list ALL the docs. So here it is: Out of a faculty roster of 26 there are 5 accredited docs(I think Faith Sem is--otherwise 4) What is that 20%? So there it is in all its honesty! And how many of these faculty members have there highest degree from LBU? 14 do! Somewhat over 50%

Is that enough of the story and does that fix my omissions?

Craig, as my post said, this does not preclude good study there.

Blessings en Xpistos on you too!

 

dative not nominative

That is, en Xpistw

 

Dr. Steve Levicoff, in his book, Name It and Frame It? New Opportunities in Adult Education and How to Avoid Being Ripped Off by 'Christian' Degree Mills, lists the National Association of Marriage and Family Counselors, in Chapter 11, under the heading of, “counseling programs that may be classified as counseling or certification mills.”

Here the complete listing:


NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MARRIAGE AND FAMILY COUNSELORS
3031 Hollywood
Shreveport, Louisiana 71108
(318) 631-8875

• Sponsored by Louisiana Baptist University (formerly known as Baptist Christian University), a degree mill listed in Chapter 12, this credential mill advertises, "Each member receives a beautiful Counselors Certificate imprinted with your name and suitable for framing. This certificate enables you to display your credential as a Certified Christian Counselor . . . No on [sic] would think of seeking medical advice from one who claimed to be a medical doctor and did not display his or her credentials. The Lord's work deserves ever more diligence. In a time where so much that we do is under increased scrutiny, this can give added credibility to your roll [sic] as a Christian Counselor." The requirements for membership include a B.A. degree in any field; therefore, no formal education in counseling is required. Also affiliated with Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary, listed in Chapter 12. Their certification, which is worthless, should not to be confused with that of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy in Washington, DC, a legitimate agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education and CORPA.

So it appears, that of that writing, Dr. Levicoff considered LBU a degree mill that was being recognized by its own counseling or certification mill.

LBU, however, on their Web page describing the degree offerings (B.A., M.A., Ph.D.) from their School of Christian Counseling still offers this endorsement: “This program meets high professional standards for Christian counselors and is recognized by the National Association of Marriage and Family Counselors.”

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

"Hyperbolic" is a gracious description of such shenanigans!

 

At least the NAMFC has a moral code. The AAMFT has a left-winged, political agenda that, often times, has nothing to do with marriage and family therapy and that's why I did not renew my membership with them.

 

My apologies

To everyone who responded:

My original intent was simply to extoll the virtues of seeking properly accredited religious education, as opposed to, well..ahem...other choices.

It is a point well taken that accreditation, per se, probably has little to do with homiletical excellence. Point well taken.

I used to work with a whole covey of Bob Jones graduates and found them to be very closeminded in a number of ways. I did manage to persuade one such pastor to accompany me to an Evangelical Theological Society meeting in Southern Cal and was "forbidden" to mention any of the subject matter at hour home church.

I'm sure any ill comments I've made concerning Andersonville Baptist Seminary (and by extension LBU - where one of these former BJU pastors attained his PhD) really stems from my experiences with these graduates. Yes, my pastor friend with his ABS PhD preached "ok" but I've often wondered if his homiletics might have been a little sharper given a "better" education. [Sorry - had to make a small jab]

Seeing the name of the great Western Seminary invoked in this thread, I'm reminded of a conversation I had with Dr. James Sawyer (theology professor par excelence at Western Seminary in CA) concerning this very topic. His reply to my inquiry about the worth of doctorates from such places went something like this, "...you know those type of people, who flaunt their credentials from such places, really annoy those of us who have worked so diligently for ours." Dr. Sawyer earned his PhD in historical theology from DTS...so maybe, just maybe, he had earned the "right" to say that.

Anyways, keep up the faith,
Steven King
Note: Dr. Sawyer is an excellent professor, who would very much like to pastor, but wouldn't be able to - he'd leave too many intellectually behind.

 

Gus and Bill: Please read this in the spirit in which I offer it--as an explanation much more than an argument. I really don't want to make an issue of LBU. It is in my opinion a good school A) compared with other religious schools, particularly of its denominational color B) even compared to the secular universities I have attended (11 years fulll time residential study). I say here and I have said before, LBU is a good school that I truly believe is well intentioned. I also think it gets bettter each year. It is not currently a great or even very good school, but it is good, and it requires of its students a reasonable amount of work. It is I think in this sense roughly comparable to other schools both accredited and serious unaccredited schools. The important thing is that it strives to get better. Most of its faculty have terminal degrees there, very true. But most are BBF preachers and LBU is (or was) the only source of BBF chartered doctoral degrees. Also, though it is a practice in secular and secularized Christian universities to seek institutional diversity in its faculty, that is not always the case in schools that have a doctrinal or denominational agenda. Now, should a school hire its own people disproportionately? That is another question entirely. I have, for one, never found the faculty of secular universities to be particularly diverse in their ideologies. At any rate, schools like Pensacola Christian, Bob Jones, Landmark Baptist, Midwestern Conservative Baptist Seminary, and even DTS do hire a lot of their own graduates. I think about 90% of BJU teachers have at least one BJU degree. Now you may not think these are good schools, and I understand that you would be far from alone in that opinion. I am just saying that in Fundamental Baptist circles it is not at alll unusual for schools to hire people who they know are "on board"
doctrinally and ideologically. In that regard hiring your own graduates makes sense. Now I know this is not the ideal in secular scientific and liberal arts education--nor is it an ideal that I share wholly in every situation. But it is an attitude I understand. LBU states on page five of its catalog that "Louisiana Baptist University serves as a primary postsecondary education resource for baccalaureate and graduate education for the 4,000 churches [of the BBF]." Its purpose is to "train Christian workers for Christian service." This I believe it does pretty well. Given its purpose and strong denominational ties, one could ask quite seriously if LBU needs accreditation. The process is profoundly labor intensive and very expensive. Personally I think they should and will seek TRACS authorization. But I don't know if it willl make them a better school. I can tell you in absolute honesty that I wrote substantiallly more at LBU--because of the nature of DL learning--than I did at the University of California in a Ph.D. program. I probably read more at UC, but not by a great margin. LBU required, at least of me, very serious work.

As to Tyndale, Bill, I reallly don't know much about it except that they have very good language instruction materials. As far as I know thaey certainly don't misrepresent their "diplomas" as degrees. Mal Couch was a dissertation reader of mine and was extremely helpful and informative.

One last point: Not all education is the same, either in desired outcomes or in instructional schemes. What LBU does is different from, say, what Waldon or Argosy does. Can they be compared? Only to a degree. (no pun intended) What I am trying to say is that in terms of its purpose LBU is not at all a bad school. Accreditation is an important guide, but in asssessing a school it is not the only standard--to make it so, is to limit one's understanding of what education is, what its puroses are, and how it might be accomplished.

Gus: I do not mean this to sound in any way sarcastic, just clear. Steve's book is useful. I read it. Steve has strong opinions and explains them well. He writes well too. But they are his opinions. NIFI is just a book, one resource among many written by a human being and subject to prejudice, misjudgement and error. At the very least he has a very pronounced ideological agenda, to which he is entitled. Simply put, though I respect Steve, when it comes to evaluating a school I have attended and he has not, I will go with my own opinion.

Billl: I did take note that you stated the accreditation/faculty issues do not preclude good academic work being done at LBU--thanks.

Let me list my own educational history only so that you willl see where I am coming from:

Catholic High School
BA Cal State LA
MA Cal State LA
Cand. Phil. English University of California Riverside
Th.D. LBU
Additional study, San Diego State University
Ph.D. (in final dissertation phase at RA/GAAP school that I willl disclose after I graduate)

Again, blessings

 

Dr Sawyer

Hi Steven

While at Western Conservative Baptist Seminary in Portland, Oregon I was not privileged to have Sawyer as a Theology Prof. I think I left before he came or that he was at the other campus. I did have Robt Cook, now retired (ThD Dallas) and Gerry Breshears (PhD Fuller). Gerry is a fine man and I became very fond of Dr Cook. He tested us by having us sit facing him and he would ask questions and probe our responses. When Dr Cook and Rob Wiggins (registrar, PhD OSU or Univ Oregon) let me in the school I felt as though all heavenly eschatology I had realized. I was coming off years of neglecting my spiritual condition and that admittance to Western was as a confirmation of a divine welcoming back."

I share Dr Sawyer's concern about the variance between accredited and unaccredited theology degrees. While I feel that such as preaching skills is a spiritual gift, I have a strong persuasion that real diligence in the study of Christian Theology and homiletics too as in most disciplines most likely occurs in context of an accredited school. And to suppose a school can provide the equivalent of accredited training at the doctoral level when in general the profs do not have the experience of earning accredited doctorates themselves would seem to require a jump of logic that I can no longer perform!

 

change of subject anyone?

Craig

I posted to Steve before I saw your post. Let's shake and be thankful for the One who inspires our pursuit of academic excellence. His best to you.

 

which HS?

Craig

Whoops !!! You went to a Catholic High School? I take that handshake back!! (hah)

 

Don't worry Bill, I wore gloves while I was there! As to this thread, as I look at it I think North has the best idea. LBU should just bite the bulllet, raise the money, hire a couple of outside Ph.D.s, streamline its programs, and get TRACS. The investment clearly would be recovered a hundred fold. It reallly is one of those rare birds, a not bad unaccredited school. I hate to see it discussed in the same breath as Andersonville, the school that requires no books.


In His name

 

If I remember correctly Tyndale got fined (big) by the State of Texas not long ago. Texas has fairly stringent requirements and apparently did not like Tyndale calling itself an educational institution and issuing degrees. Texas has strict requirements about who can use terms like *seminary* and *university*.

North

 

Not quite accurate on this one, Craig! They do require one specific text--the King James Version.

 

Russell: I stand corrected they do require one book. If you are going to have only one book I guess the KJV would be the choice, but I think at Andersonvillle it is not so much a BOOK as a TAPE.

You know though you remind me of something. My (very Baptist) grandmother owned only four books---the KJV, the complete works of Shakespeare, the Betty Crocker Cook Book, and the Home Medical Guide.

Blesssings

 

Andersonville is much more liberal than I imagined. True King James Only advocates would never entertain cassette/video tapes--much too liberal. The 1611 edition (which was used by Paul, via miraculous transportation back in time) is required, even for those earthlings who can't read English.

 

KJV

Russell,

You really are a tease!

 

Re: KJV

Just trying to keep some objectivity, Bill.