America’s moment of truth on Ukraine

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Stanislav, Apr 12, 2024.

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  1. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    https://www-ft-com.ezproxy.depaul.edu/content/98f37cee-aaf6-47c5-b032-bde2968e00f0
    "Donald Trump says that Ukraine should cede the Donbas and Crimea to Russia in exchange for a ceasefire — an outcome he would impose on day one of his presidency. Some Republicans still want to supply Ukraine with weapons. But they are in a minority. The Republican right treats Ukraine as an enemy and Russia as a friend. Defining that stance as isolationist is lazy and wrong. It is actively pro-Russian. "

    Indeed.
     
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Huh, I didn't realize he was running for President of Ukraine.
     
  3. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    More accurately he "bragged that he would impose" this outcome. He doesn't have this kind of leverage. He will, however, help his mentor Vlad as much as he can.
     
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  4. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    Quote from the article: “The Ukrainian government is attacking Christians,” says [Marjorie Taylor] Greene. “The Ukrainian government is executing priests. Russia is not doing that. They are not attacking Christianity. As a matter of fact they seem to be protecting it.”

    What a dumb comment.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/ukrainian-christian-groups-face-violent-crackdown-from-russian-forces
     
  5. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    MTG is, indeed dumb; but! That's what they feed their base.
    I wonder why no one in America talks about russia persecuting Jehovah's Witnesses. Technically, not a Christian religion and, again, technically, a cult. But they are, literally, being arrested for praying on patently ridiculous "extremism" grounds, all across russia. And that's on top of what they do to Protestants, Catholics, and pro-Ukrainian Eastern Orthodox on occupied territory. If I remember correctly, at least 2 Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests are in custody right now. Their lives are in danger. Unlike the lives of the russian moles from the traitorous "moscow patriarchate" - in wartime! - even those few investigated by Ukrainian authorities.
     
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  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Trump is not running for President of Ukraine. He's running for help from Russia to win the 2024 election and more financial handouts from Russian oligarchs.
     
  7. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    There will be some interesting debates concerning religious freedom with the emerging proposal of labeling the Patriarchate of Moscow as a terrorist group akin to an Islamist terrorist organization. Such a proposal is currently being discussed in Estonia, but I am sure that other countries are also looking into this issue.

    Link: https://orthodoxtimes.com/interior-minister-of-estonia-urges-labeling-patriarchate-of-moscow-as-terrorist-group/

    "Under the proposal, the Estonian Orthodox Church, which operates under the Moscow Patriarchate, would also be scrutinized, although it would not receive a similar designation."

    "While a representative of the Estonian Church clarified that the organization does not report directly to the Moscow Patriarchate or Patriarch Kirill and therefore cannot be held accountable for statements supporting Russia’s actions in Ukraine, Läänemets emphasized that based on information from his ministry and a recent assessment by the Internal Security Service (ISS), he is compelled to act to sever ties between the Estonian Orthodox Church and the Moscow Patriarch."

    "Drawing parallels between the actions of the Moscow Patriarchate and Islamist terrorists, Läänemets stressed the need to address the threat posed by the organization’s affiliation with Moscow."
     
  8. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Estonian Orthodox Church does in fact report directly to Kirill in practice, and their Metropolitan missed several chances to show his disagreement with him. As to "terrorist" designation: they are certainly pro-russian fascism. Patriarch Kirill of Moscow presided at the XXV World Russian People's Council last month, which adopted this "Directive":
    "1. Special military operation
    The Special Military Operation is a new stage of the national liberation struggle of the Russian people against the criminal Kiev regime and the collective West behind it, conducted in the lands of South-Western Rus’ since 2014. During the SMO, the Russian people with arms in their hands defends its life, freedom, statehood, civilizational, religious, national, and cultural identity, as well as the right to live on their own land within the borders of the united Russian state. From a spiritual and moral point of view, the special military operation is a Holy War, in which Russia and its people, defending the unified spiritual space of the Holy Rus’, fulfills the mission of the "Holder", protecting the world from the onslaught of globalism and the victory of the West that has fallen into Satanism.
    After the end of SMO all territory of modern Ukraine should enter into a zone of exclusive influence of Russia. The possibility of the existence on this territory of a Russophobic political regime hostile to Russia and its people, as well as a political regime governed from an external center hostile to Russia, must be completely ruled out."

    Read all of it, it doesn't get better: Order of the XXV World Russian People's Council "Present and Future of the Russian World" - RISU
     
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  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I'm sure Jesus would have said the same thing. /s
     
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  10. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Accepting Russian control over parts of Ukraine would expand the reach of Putin’s dictatorship after what has been the biggest land war in Europe since World War II. Some of Trump’s supporters have been trying to persuade him against such an outcome.
     
  11. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    :) Russians say that Ukraine already has a US president of Ukraine.
    The Russian propaganda always been pushing narative that President Biden and the administration are who running Ukraine, not Pr Zelensky.
    So even here he needs to beat Pr Biden who proved to be great allie, friend of Ukraine and the free world.
     
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  12. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Meanwhile, in the US the dezinformatsiya is that that President Zelenskyy is dictating policy to the Biden administration.
     
  13. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I absolutely agree the Russia must not gain territory as a result of its war of aggression. But I'm uneasy about those parts of eastern Ukraine that are, or were, said to be heavily Russisn speaking. I'm also not entirely comfortable with any solution that deprives Russia of access to Crimea. Russia might have had some legitimate claims here before Putin resorted to war.

    I just don’t think Russia would agree to withdraw and go quietly away unless Ukraine dictates terms in the Kremlin itself.

    But this is just musing on my part.
     
  14. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Russian speaking does not mean Russian jurisdiction. Nor does it give russia any moral claim. You are aware, of course, that the entrenchmment of Russian language is the direct result of genocide? Most significantly, "Holodomor" famine-genocide of 1933-34? Also significantly, there are plenty russophone and formerly russophone troops fighting for Ukraine. The best man at my wedding recently got medical discharge from a frontline infantry unit he volunteered for at the beginning of war; he was and to my knowledge still is russophone.

    No they didn't. Crimea is Ukraine in international law. Moreover, their historical claim to it is weaker than eg. Ukraine's (not seriously entertained) claim to historically Ukrainian parts of Voronezh, Kursk and Bilhorod regions in Southern Russia.
     
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  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    International law is binding exactly as far as nations choose to be bound by it. That’s one reason the UN is worthless.

    I’m not arguing about what’s right and just. Such notions are irrelevant. I am not arguing about anything, really. I’m thinking about what the parties will accept in order to end the war. Ukraine will never defeat Russia. Russia will have to decide what she will accept in order to stop the fighting, that’s all.
     
  16. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    My neighbor is from Armenia, and he fears Ukraine eventually will face the same faith as Armenia conflict with Azerbaijan.
    While I'm not comparing the two, it appears that there is a weakening support of Ukraine in a form of ammunition supplies, which are critical for Ukraine ability to repel the Russian invaders from gaining more territories. Ukraine did the impossible so far, as the war in Gaza shifted the focus in favor of Russia, while China saved the Russian economy from collapsing.

    After months of delay, the US House of Representatives appears poised to hold a vote on tens of billions of dollars in American military aid for Ukraine and Israel this weekend.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2024
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I don't think Russia can afford to withdraw from Crimea. I also don't believe Ukraine will be able to force the Russians out. This is independent of whether Putin suffers a Stalinesque "heart attack". As for the rest, I really have no idea. If I were involved in negotiations, I might suggest a plebiscite in the Donbas territory but I doubt Ukraine or Russia would agree to it.
     
  18. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    The Putin regime claims they already held one.
     
  19. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    What? A heart attack?
     
  20. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

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