Actual Work Requirements at CalCoast?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by BLD, May 24, 2002.

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  1. Veteran101

    Veteran101 New Member

    Well

    All I know is there are two wonderful RA Universities.
    One in NJ, one in PA.

    In NJ. Just show up for the class, sign in, leave and
    still hit a 3.0.
    In PA. Need a credit filler? Well, how about Bowling!!!
    Yes, Bowling. No not at the local town alley but on
    campus. That's because 10 frames there cost
    $795.00 plus fees of $125.00 to complete the game
    and get 3 credits... Ohhhh!

    Face it, we can argue RA, DETC, Non RA, Ivy, Big 10
    Little Town or whatever we wish to label.
    I have hired and fired more educated idiot's to last
    a lifetime.
    My last jewel I let go was a MBA from a Big 10 University
    that could not even spread a financial statement.

    With the above, I am not saying that higher education is a waste of time. By all means no. Lifetime learning is key.

    But as to my last post. I am starting to wonder in todays world
    if all the institutions of higher learning are heading toward a degree mill status.
    What was the famous movie line?

    "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!"
    It's more BIG BUSINESS, than BIG BUSINESS itself!
     
  2. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    Re: Well

    Purely anecdotal evidence and no basis to support it. What is your position that you are hiring and firing MBA grads and other educated folk. This may help give some credibility to your statements. Otherwise, it appears that you have a hang-up with folks who have gone out and received an academic education.

    If the schools you mentioned have such problems they are typically caught in the accreditation review process and can then correct it. If you are referring to a larger problem of grade inflation in our schools you will get some support here. Overall, Cal Coast has nothing in comparison to accreditation to insure that any of its degree courses have academic integrity. Again, how do they assess the outcomes of their graduates compared to RA schools.

    What's wrong with Bowling as a PE course? It is an elective. Most major universities offer a wide range of sporting activities and students will take these as a certain amount of electives.
    It is my observation that students at traditional universities that sign up for these courses pay their semester tuition that includes taking a semester courseload that may include a PE course.


    John
     
  3. Veteran101

    Veteran101 New Member

    Dr.

    Purely anecdotal evidence and no basis to support it. What is your position that you are hiring and firing MBA grads and other educated folk. This may help give some credibility to your statements. Otherwise, it appears that you have a hang-up with folks who have gone out and received an academic education.

    As I stated:
    I am not saying that higher education is a waste of time. By all means no. Lifetime learning is key.

    My "hang-up" is that of today's Universities looking more for the buck than the education welfare of the student.

    What's wrong with Bowling as a PE course? It is an elective. Most major universities offer a wide range of sporting activities and students will take these as a certain amount of electives.
    It is my observation that students at traditional universities that sign up for these courses pay their semester tuition that includes taking a semester courseload that may include a PE course.

    I would say, why would this be an elective. PE courses?
    Again, filler's per say.
    Today's average student in an RA University is signing more promissary notes then he or she can handle. So by the time they are 50 maybe they will be paid off.
    Sorry Dr. Being one whom has paid these high debts ( along with many, many others) I would say I have a "hang-up" with universities dishing out rolls of C Notes to the latest and greatest
    NFL potential then focusing on academics.


    What is your position that you are hiring and firing MBA grads and other educated folk.
    Again, I look to hire individuals who have and continue to pursue
    lifelong learning. Common Sense is my first requirement.
    Grade inflation. I agree. And we also go back to $$$ over
    instruction.

    Many of our large corporations are putting the degree ahead of
    the talent. We all know this.
    Almost a form of discrimination. Well, actually it is.
    Much of this is due to contribution agreements between large
    universities and large companies. i.e. sponsored job fairs for example.
    Personally, give me a strong minded youngster or military vet
    with a HS diploma, striving for success, knows sacrifice and
    on a continuous learning cycle. Or just Joe who has a BS with
    mom and dads loot. I will take the strong minded over Joe.

    Just speaking from experience.

    Im sure you probably disagree but that is your parogative.

    Good Day Dr.

    Dave
     
  4. Eli

    Eli New Member

    Save your money... I can give you a list of eight books to purchase.. read it and you will have the same "educational experience" as CCU... even better.

    I enrolled in CCUs program few years ago... completed three courses (Finance, OB, Marketing). Found it to be a joke! Withdrew with no regrets.

    Today, I completed an MBA from a RA school. Yes, I paid more and worked much more for my degree but it is worth every penny.

    Go with regionally accredited schools and save yourself the hassle of defending a "state approved" degree for life.

    CCU is not a "mill" but the work is far from being challenging. Even the multiple choice (open book) so called exams are straight forward questions requiring straight forward answers.

    Many students I know who enrolled in CCU did not even bother to read the chapters. They located the question and looked up the answer. The course took around a week to be completed (with dedicated effort) :)

    Eli
    Ph.D. in Business Administration Candidate, Touro University International
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2002
  5. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator Staff Member

    I am taking an American Government class at the local community college. I was mailed the mid-term and final 1 week before the class started. The exams had due date and in the orientation the instructor told us to just answer the 6 (thats right 6) questions for each test and mail them to him. That was all. This RA course is easier that any CCU courses I took.
    I don't think the way the test is administered at CCU is that strange of a concept.
     
  6. Eli

    Eli New Member

    Obviously your experience with this RA college is not impressive but this is no reason to support non-accredited or state approved schools.

    Exceptional cases do happen (even in RA institutions), I can assure you though that it is not common. Taking one incident in a local college to generalize and condemn RA is a little bit too far.

    I would like to invite you to check sample dissertations written by CCU Ph.D. students (DBA has no dissertation!!). Then you can evaluate how serious the school is. Trust me.. you will be shocked! I am pretty sure that every blunder in RA schools is matched with 500 similar stories in non-accredited ones.

    Students are earning Ph.D.s in 9 months flat at CCU! Give us a break please.

    Eli
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2002
  7. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    Re: Dr.

    Dave,

    Overall you have clouded the issue of this thread. So far I have detected three issues from your statements that are worth discussing:

    1.) Grade Inflation -- already mentioned and many agree this is an issue. However, it doesn't equate that RA is bad and others are just as good.

    2.) Profit motive in education. A topic also widely discussed and ranges from school closings to non-profit and for-profit institutions.

    3.) Quality of an individual. You stated, "Personally, give me a strong minded youngster or military vet
    with a HS diploma, striving for success, knows sacrifice and
    on a continuous learning cycle. Or just Joe who has a BS with
    mom and dads loot. I will take the strong minded over Joe."

    What I am asking of you is that you broaden your vision a bit about what education is all about. It is not something that has to be acquired from the school of hard knocks. That strong minded youngster you refer too is typically going to go to school and earn an RA degree.

    With all of this said, the RA route to education will give you the proper credentials. The unaccredited route is seen as sloppy and not up to par (with very few exceptions). Essentially, unaccredited education has no standards so degree candidates will typically take a much easier path to earning their degree than some of their peers who decided to work hard in the program, get an education, but will receive the same unaccredited diploma.

    John
     
  8. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Joke Work Requirements

    Dr.,
    The exams are not proctored, but the school counters collusion by issuing multible tests for the same subject. As for asking someone else, what's to stop a student from passing notes during a classroom exam? The same moral principles that all legit institutions of higher education expect from their students.

    Michael
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2002
  9. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    As I see it

    (This post was also submitted in another thread of a similar topic)

    Gentlemen,
    I find it appalling that a group of educated and respected scholars would be so biased and one sided in regards to CCU. I cant believe that so many would offer bad or inaccurate information in regards to the school.
    It has been said here that a degrees from CCU would not be accepted in the business world. I’m here to say that many business do accept the degree for career enhancement, and some even pay for it. How do I know this? I’m currently employed by a large company in the HR office. Issues like these are dealt with on a daily basis. In addition, my company has paid for my schooling at CCU. However there are many companies outside and inside of California who might insist on a RA degree, but there are many who would accept the CCU degree. That is the conscious decision a CCU student needs to make.
    In regards to the education offered by the school, I can honestly and sincerely state that it is at the university level. It has been challenging and comprehensive. The text books that are required to complete the study guides are at the university level. How do I know that? I get the texts through my public library via interlibrary loans. The books always arrive from the campus libraries of California state universities and places like the University of Mobile. My wife is currently attending the local community college and I’m shocked by the simplicity of the curricula and the exams given. Many of the classes don’t give tests, but take home papers and projects. She usually finishes them in an hour and receives A’s and B’s.
    It has been stated here that the study guides are multiple choice with the chapter and page of the question given. It is true that the chapter is given but I can assure you, the pages are not. In addition, just because the guides are multiple choice doesn’t make them easy. Many questions are based on the understanding and knowledge of the material. You cant just “look up” a key word or topic. Every study guide I have completed I had to study, not just read, the texts from cover to cover. On many occasions I had to call the school for assistance, (which they promptly gave). If anyone here thinks they can easily pass accounting or business law at CCU by skimming they will be sorely mistaken.
    The faculty of CCU all have there degrees from RA schools, and you do not find the majority of them with their PhD’s from CCU as occurs with infamous institutions like Century U. As for graduate students finishing there doctorate in nine months, I know of many PhD’s who have completed it in a year at RA schools.
    Many times the issue of cost has arisen here. What many of the posters have failed to inform Brandon is that many of the RA distance ed. schools require that one already have 60 credits of general ed. completed. One can complete the 60 credits with those schools, but the tuition will increase. CCU offers a straight forward pricing plan which many people find attractive and easy to understand, but one is not “buying” the degree by paying a flat fee. Personally, I find it to be a brilliant marketing tool. Just because the mills do that does not classify the school as a mill, diploma or degree. I hope in the future the RA school begin to offer prices and straight forward costs as CCU does.
    And finally, I find it much more light weight in “CLEPing out” with some of the RA schools than studying and completing the study guides given by CCU. It’s not Stanford, but neither are the “big three”.
    All I ask is that all sides of the story are given. Sometimes the regulars (who I respect) sound so extremist here. Also, I hope I will not be blacklisted for my views. I would like to contribute here from time to time. It seems that membership is taken away or blocked if one upsets the administrators, but we will never know if I’m to be silenced.

    Michael

    P.S. I too am interested in this article in the OCR that HR PRO has inferred to. I’m glad Dr. Bear asked first (who I have great respect for), ‘cause I’m sure there will be some kind of response.
    MB
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Give us some examples of each, Gert.

    RA/GAAP Degree Mills:

    Unaccredited Schools which are not:
     
  11. It's not worth a flame war, but in my personal opinion any school that grants a significant number of credits (say >30% of total required) for portfolios or "testing out" (using externally designed exams) is a degree mill. So I would include Excelsior, TESC, COSC, and Western Governors in this category. On the other hand, if someone's goal is admission to a graduate program then I think a degree from TESC etc. is an acceptable path forward. But I wouldn't accept such a degree as a terminal qualification. As far as non-U.S. GAAP schools are concerned, I think that most of the public universities in Western Europe, Canada, and Australia are OK. But most of the public universities (and almost all of the private institutions) in Africa are unacceptable. Similarly, undergraduate degrees from many of the public universities in India and Pakistan are unacceptable (though degrees from IIT and its ilk are certainly top-notch).

    As far as unaccredited schools are concerned, I am reminded of the story of The Educated Rabbit. I think an unaccredited degree only makes sense as a terminal graduate degree (as Peter French has discussed). Under those circumstances, I think that an unaccredited school which connects a student with the right advisor can provide a legitimate research degree. Perhaps Greenwich and/or Fairfax would fit the bill? I don't have much knowledge of these specific schools -- but I do believe that it's possible to earn a legitimate research degree from an unaccredited university. Such a degree would have to stand firmly upon the merits of the dissertation.
     
  12. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    1. Do you believe that the credit by exam and portfolio concept is inherently flawed, or do you only object to how it's being implemented by these schools?

    2. Why do you object to offering more than 30% of a program by this means? If the assessment medium is flawed, then why use it at all? But if the method is inherently sound, then why not accept its wider use?

    3. Why do you make an exception for in-house exams? Wouldn't an externally designed set of examinations be preferrable because it would create an objective and transparent standard?

    4. And let me revisit the same issue that you raised in the post that Russell questioned: What is your definition of 'degree mill'? In my mind that's a pretty strong charge, going well beyond 'less than wonderful' or 'substandard', to the point of fraud. I suspect that you mean something else, but I have no way of knowing precisely what.
     
  13. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
  14. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

     
  15. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    he?

    I sure hope you are right! BUT,


    Here is another deficit of these forums. I should have looked up the profile! I have thought all along that "Gert" was short for "Gertrude!" Im sorry, Gert.

    A redfaced,
     
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    As long as I'm disagreeing with you Gert, I might as well go whole hog. To my mind, the very idea of a non-accredited degree suggests "unclear on the concept".

    As I've argued repeatedly, a *degree* is a public certification. A degree only has meaning in a social context in which people already have an expectation about what degrees signify.

    So if a degree doesn't meet that expected standard, or as is more common with unaccredited degrees, if there is no way of knowing what standard the degree signifies, then the degree fails in its mission.

    That is NOT to say that the non-accredited education was worthless. All education is valuable, as long as it isn't misrepresented.

    That's why I always use the example of CA-approved Hsi Lai University. I think that it's a great place to get a rather specialized education at (in my opinion) a surprisingly high standard. But it is a *poor* place to earn a doctorate. Degrees from Hsi Lai, much as I like the place, don't mean very much at all.

    That's where I part company with you. I *don't* think that its possible to earn a legitimate research degree from an unaccredited university. That's true simply because of what the non-accredited university is (or rather isn't).

    Obviously any dissertation coming out of such a school might be of a very high standard. It might be better than many RA dissertations. There is no reason why such a work shouldn't be published or why it shouldn't count as a valid contribution to scholarship.

    But unless there is some credible grounds for expecting that the university *requires* such a standard to be met in order for a degree to be awarded, then the award of a degree means little.

    A CCU graduate may easily do work that compares with that done at RA schools. He or she may get a fine education. The problem is that nobody has any real reason to believe that.
     
  17. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    There are probably two main reasons why unaccredited universities thrive.

    The first one is that so many employers expect their employees to have a degree, whether the qualification has anything to do with their job or not.

    When I graduated from high school in 1970 with a class of 120, probably 20-30 had already dropped out. Of the 120 who graduated about 10 enrolled in a university. These 10, myself included, were typically quite bright. Other than professional programs, universities were the realm of academics. Registered Nurses studied at large hospitals and were not necessarily in degree programs. A large number of school teachers did not have degrees.

    In the last 10 years, Alberta has gone from 4 universities to a dozen or more degree granting institutions. Private colleges, community colleges and technical schools now grant their own degrees. The technical schools are best known for their apprenticeship training. Who knows when a BS in auto mechanics is coming?

    The second reason is cost. Education used to be regarded as a great equalizer in society. If one had the ability, no matter their social roots, cost was not to be a deterrant in their getting an education. Egalitarianism did live in the 60s and 70s.

    I can only speak of my province, but funding of public universities has gone from more than 90 % to less than 80 % and costs have increaed dramatically. Whereas tuition was an annoyance, it is now a significant cost.

    In Alberta some programs have ceased to be government funded and operate as cash cows for the universities, such as Athabasca University's MBA program, definitely not egalitarian.

    Unaccredited universities may be picking up many of the students that public universities have abandoned. The we generation has definitely evolved into the me generation.
     
  18. EllisZ

    EllisZ New Member

    David,

    Indeed the only reason that I would ever consider an unaccredited school for a doctorate (and ONLY for a doctorate) would be the cost factor. (And I'm not even convinced it makes sense in that regard yet.)

    - Ellis
    (BSCIS, M.I.T.)
     
  19. Ike

    Ike New Member

    True Gert but (now-reclusive) Steve promised to update NIFI criteria (?). I don't know if he will still do that. Uhmm, Gert, you called Steve reclusive. It willl be interesting to watch a duel between you and Steve. It will be a clash of two titans.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    These days with extremely affordable South African and Australian alternatives, *almost* the only reason for not doing an equivalent of accredited doctorate is lack of academic ability or laziness. Heck you can do a doctorate through University of Zululand for under 2000 dollars (total cost).

    North
     

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