1. mineralhh

    mineralhh New Member

    Hello everyone,

    I do have a question: A friend of mine studied at Nova Southeastern University in Florida, which to his knowledge is/was regionally accredited. He earned a MBA there, but when returning home to Germany, government officials denied him the right to use his NSU-title here.

    They claimed, that in the US NSU might be regionally accredited, but not AACSB accredited, therefore the program would be "substandard" and "not up to european educational standards". By doing so, they put the NSU degree right next to any other dilpoma mill degree, that also is not accepted here.

    Is this the one in a million exemption to the rule, that an RA accreditation of a university is not sufficient for international students or is it always necessary to additionally check for subject specific accreditation?

  2. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    That´s actually typical only for the German speaking countries, and within these, by the authority of the local state (ministry of education).
    Unfortunately, some states do really regard Non-AACSB business degrees from the States as not being equivalent to German university degrees, but this process is changing gradually.
    That does not say that US RA degrees are "near diploma mill" standard, as you state, but only that they are below German (or Old-EU) standard. I had a longer talk with the person responsible for this process (called "Nostrification" of Non-EU degrees) in North-Rhine Westphalia (Germany´s biggest state), and it is actually not quite the way you say, it is more like not only the AACSB degrees are generally accepted, but also degrees from "know schools", which is mostly state universities and so on, but on the other hand only very few DL only schools. So the result would be more: degrees from not-"known" DL schools (mostly those that do not even have brick-and-mortar campusses) are harder to be accepted in Germany, and sometimes they are not accepted at all, unfortunately.
    But, as I said, that is a question of the state authority, and not generally applicable for Germany. Your friend is btw still allowed to use his degree in his CV, but unfortunately not on business cards, etc.
    Sad, but that´s the way it is.
    But, as I remarked, this whole process is changing DRAMATICALLY. In a few years, it will be like the Netherlands, that any non-national degree can be used, but maybe the name of the university or country of origin has to be put in brackets after the abbreviation (like: John Doe, MBA (NSU) or MBA (USA) in this case).

  3. mineralhh

    mineralhh New Member

    Thanks a lot for the information. Still I believe it to be confusing, as apparently RA is not always sufficient to gain a legally fully usable degree in Germany. This is especially tricky in my mind, as I personally wasn't even aware of the importance of additional subject specific accreditation.

    As students sometimes consult me regarding foreign degree programs, I feel I have to modify my advice "Go for RA"...I just got an e-mail from local authorities stating, that RA would be the "MINIMUM requirement", that a program of a university would barely be considered, AACSB for Business Degrees would rather point to equivalent scientific strength, so this is also what I will recommend from now on.

    If this actually is a fair evaluation by authorities, one seriously would have to wonder what kind of work is submitted at schools, which do not qualify for RA.

    triggersoft, you seem to be well informed about foreign degree acceptance in Germany, on a different note do you know, how a MBA degree earned traditionally from an accreddited university in england has to be referred to? Is it "Name (MBA)","Name (MBA of University Name, England) or does this also differ from state to state?

  4. Han

    Han New Member

    When you say not able to use his title, do you mean they are not recognizing his degree at all, or not transfering credits?

    I have heard, within the US some schools not taking other schools credits, but I have not heard not being able to use a title, so something may be lost in the translation.

    And no, RA is not equal to a degree mill, if anyone were to say otherwise, they are the one in a million exception. :eek:
  5. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

    It looks to me that SACS which accredits Nova Southeastern U is much more demanding instructor-wise than the AACSB. From a post of mine in April 2004:


    FAU = Florida Atlantic University, a state run aacsb accredited school

    SACS = The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools.

    Here is some information from article

    Looks to me like the AACSB is pretty lenient on instructors. Ask Tulane University or Valdosta State!

    Perhaps Nova Southeastern has better things to do with their money than paying all these fees for the honor of being told what to do:


    Accreditation Fees
    (Effective July 1, 2003)

    Fees from PreAccreditation Application through the Initial Accreditation Review:
    PreAccreditation Application Fee – Business or Accounting1 $ 3,400
    PreAccreditation Application Fee – Business and Accounting1 $ 5,800
    Annual PreAccreditation Fee – Business or Accounting2 $ 3,400
    Annual PreAccreditation Fee – Business and Accounting $ 5,800
    Initial Business or Initial Accounting Accreditation Application Fee $11,000
    Initial Business and Initial Accounting Accreditation Application Fee $17,000

    Fees for Accredited Institutions: 3
    Annual Accreditation Fee – Business $ 3,400
    Annual Accreditation Fee – Business and Accounting $ 5,800
    Maintenance review fees are included in the annual accreditation fee.

    Deposit for Team Travel Expenses (minimum) 4, 5 $ 3,000

    No wonder the AACSB can afford to move to sunny Tampa!

    As usual,

    Just my opinion
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2004
  6. hi_gen123

    hi_gen123 New Member

    This links shows the institutions accredited by AACSB.


    Interestingly, only 2 from Germany are in the list. I am also interested about the acceptance of RA degrees in other countries ( more specifically India ). There is no college from India accredited by AACSB. If overseas Universities insist that they will recognize only AACSB and not RA, it is ridiculous. As a part of admission policy/criteria, if they reject RAs and accept AACSB only, that is a different story.

    I think it is just lack of awareness of RA accreditation overseas. If US Department of Education has a web page, which will display the list of RA accredited Universities directly ( instead of jumping to accrediting body web site ), it might be easier to convince the overseas entities that RA institutes are recognized by the US DOE.

  7. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    In Germany (some Germans States (as in some US States)) to be able to use a foreign degree for professional purposes the degree must be recognized by that State. This refers to using the degree on business cards and similar (eg "Name, MBA").

    Failure to recieve approval is a criminal offense.
  8. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    Doesn't Nova have some bricks and mortar? Don't they teach a lot of students traditionally?
  9. mineralhh

    mineralhh New Member

    hi_gen, it's not universities not accepting any transfer credits, but the refusal to accept the degree on a national level. Meaning: you are not allowed to call yourself MBA, although you have succesfully completed it for example at NSU. So, for international students choosing US universities there seems to be more to consider than just RA, which is what I originally believed...
  10. carlosb

    carlosb New Member

    A simple www.nova.edu shows the following in part:

    Allied Health and Nursing, Biomedical Sciences, Business, Computer and Information Sciences, Criminal Justice Institute, Education, Humanities and Social Sciences, Oceanography, Psychology

    First Professional:
    Dentistry, Law, Optometry, Osteopathic Medicine, Pharmacy

    This is a major B&M school!

    I've been there to watch the Miami Dolphins NFL football team practice. Walked around the campus and visited the Law School. Saw the Oceanography School as I sailed out of Port Everglades. Even considered attending. May still do so.

    Just my opinion
  11. Ike

    Ike New Member

    For the most part, it's a B&M university. Perhaps, more than 80% of its students attend classes on campus.
  12. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    Either traditionally earned or via distance learning, as long as it´s a state accredited (in this case it is, via "Royal Charter"), you can use your British MBA without any approvement in the whole EU (ANY EU degree can be used legally in every other EU country, without approving it, the problem exists only with "foreign" degrees) - in the form the issuing university requires (so most likeley something like "Name, MBA").

  13. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    Dear hi_gen123,
    that´s not interesting, that´s totally normal.

    1. We did not have any English language university programs up till now (or barely any, to be more correct).

    2. We did not have any Bachelor or Master degrees up till now, we had our own degrees (this process is changing only slowly and recently in the last ca. 4 years, since the ministries of education of all EU countries decided to let the old country degrees "run out" and introduce the Bachelor/Master structure BY 2010 -> so that even now only 10 - 20 % of our university degrees are Bachelor´s or Master´s so far, the rest still our old Diplom or Magister degree).

    3. We did not have any private accreditation so far since our ould degrees (and the whole universities) were government/state accredited/approved/evaluated. Only with the introduction of the Bachelor/Master programs, private accreditation becomes an issue here FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER. That is why only two schools (IIRC it should be the University of Mannheim and the Leipzig HHL) have even applied for AACSB so far. Besides, Germany implemented some own accreditation bodies (one e.g. responsible for Germany, Switzerland, and Austria) PLUS some schools have European accreditation (such as EQUIS/efmd or AMBA, which are considered as equivalent to AACSB, so why go to a US accreditor???).


  14. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member


    That´s what I wanted to say with the word "nostrification" (="Nostrifizierung" or "Nostrifikation" in German).

    (the same in Austria also, e.g.)
  15. blahetka

    blahetka New Member

    This is an interesting situation.

    In the US, the AACSB is a professional accreditation, like the APA or ABA, not an accreditation of the school. At one time it did have recognition by the Dept. of Ed. as an accrediting body, but dropped it.

    I believe, and it has been awhile since I looked at this so I may be way out of sync, that to gain AACSB accreditation, a school must have RA (there is a difference between being an AACSB member and having AACSB accreditation). So the fact that the German government will only recognize a dregree from an AACSB school vs one with only RA is interesting.
  16. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    It´s not QUITE like that,

    German state authorities are looking at the following points when evaluating US (business!) degrees:

    1. it must be a legal university, i.e. it must be allowed to issue degrees by the DOE, and it must be regionally accredited.

    2. it must have additional professional accreditation, and since the other US accreditors except for AACSB are not being considered as being equivalent to German degrees, only AACSB is accepted. The exception to this rule is when the school does not have professional accreditation, but is "known": and that would be any state university (CSDH for example), or other schools being e.g. in US News&World Report rankings...

    Since we have 1 year more high school (where we learn the stuff the US bachelor programs teach in their first year) + our university programs last on average 12 semesters (!), we don´t regard certain US schools as being equivalent to our education system...

    But, as I already said, this view is changing rapidly with regards to the Bologna process. By the year 2010 (I reckon even a lot earlier, to be honest), everyone will be able to lead every degree without any regards where he aquired it. The only exception which I could imagine could be that this person would need to put the country (or university) of origin in brackets after the degreee abbreviation...

    Have a great week-end,
  17. Denver

    Denver Member

    Posted by Triggersoft:

    ANY EU degree can be used legally in every other EU country, without approving it, the problem exists only with "foreign" degrees

    Will this rule remain with the continued expansion of the EU? For example, if Ukraine is ever allowed to join there are going to be a lot of titles available based on my experiences when I lived there.
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Well yes, many people in Ukraine have higher education. What's wrong with that?

    Stan Ustymenko
    BS, MS Applied Math, National Technical University of Ukraine
    (pursuing) Ph. D. Computer Science, Florida State University
  19. Denver

    Denver Member

    Stan wrote:
    Well yes, many people in Ukraine have higher education. What's wrong with that?

    This was not meant as a slur against Ukraine Stan nor the excellent state schools who have a long and distinguished history. However, my experiences in 1993-94 were that there were numerous new schools and institutions that were claiming affiliation with a state institution, goverment agency or public/private partnership that were producing advanced degrees of questionable value. This isn’t the first time I have voiced this – I had an op-ed piece in Business Central Europe on the same subject in 1994.
  20. triggersoft

    triggersoft New Member

    Most likely...

    But that will take at least 1 or 2 decades before the Ukraine will joint the EU.

    Anyhow, to speak frankly, it is still like this: a colleague of mine comes from Poland, where she is pursuing her doctorate at the moment. We´ve been talking about the requirements and the niveau of the dissertation very often - and to me, it is rather obvious that it is seems A LOT EASIER to get a PhD (in BusinesS) in Poland than in Germany, e.g. (though I must admit that their standard is even a lot higher than the one from most universities in Bulgaria, Romania, and other countries).
    For her, it will not make any difference, since she IS Polish.
    For me, it would not make ANY SENSE AT ALL to get a PhD from Poland, since both - academia and business - would always prefer a western doctorate before one from the former Eastern block, when you come from a western country. For us, only titles from even these countries (western "old europe") + the English speaking countries really make sense (at least for the majority).

    So, what would be the sense of a Ukrainian doctorate or MBA in England, Germany, France, etc.? Okay, you can lead the title on your business card, but you will not get any university job, nor a high-class job in real business. That´s the way it is.

    Besides, I see a clear tendency towards judgement by institutions, and not only by countries...


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