A proposal for a way to rate unaccredited schools

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by John Bear, Nov 6, 2005.

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  1. NikolasHorthy

    NikolasHorthy New Member

    Rating unaccredited schools

    Hello Thanks for the reply to my subjects. As for GAAP I googled and all the top responces were for ACCOUNTING, not accrediting. As for a scientific method. How about a simple point system based on REAL facts. Such as a school which is approved gets X points, professionally accredited gets Y points, RA gets W points. Then we could factor in how many degrees are granted each year, then we could factor in the faculty could get Z amount of points, based on their qualifications( graduates of RA schools get this amount of points.) And Rich this is done in all seriousness, maybe you don't like REAL debate. Maybe you get my drift now. Again, Respectfully Submitted, Nikolas Horthy
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Rating unaccredited schools

    I didn't say I Googled "GAAP." I said I searched for "Generally Accepted Accreditation Principles." It is hard to debate someone who can't get the facts right.

    Your "scientific" system isn't scientific at all. It is based upon some arbitrary accumulation of points based upon evaluations of others. Why not cut out the middlemen and just use those others' evaluations?

    How would you "factor in how many degrees are granted"? Is more good, or is fewer good?

    As for professional accreditation, are all to be treated equally? I hope not. NLN accreditation is a lot more vital to nurses than the American Board of Funeral Service Education (ABFSE)
    Committee on Accreditation is to undertakers.

    What about national accreditation? Is DETC to be taken on par with the RA's? And are the other national accreditors to be considered equal to DETC?

    And what about all of the other factors to consider, like research facilities, faculty-to-student ratios, job placement rates, quality of instruction, student services, financial status, etc.? Oh, right, we've already got that in the accreditation process. So what, exactly, would your "scientific" system provide beyond that?

    John's thoughts are towards looking at a vital group of consumers of higher education, employers, and another, admissions officers. This is something not covered by accreditation, but is essential to students and graduates. Again, why is your "scientific" system better?

    A bunch of random half-thoughts strung together isn't a "scientific" system, nor even a system at all.

    There. You have your desired debate. Your turn.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2005
  3. NikolasHorthy

    NikolasHorthy New Member

    Ratings of School

    Thanks for the responce. Rich your blog states" I ...got 63 hits... on Google." So stick to the point. This system is scientific as it places math values to real attributes. Maybe you don't understand science, science is prediction based on facts. As in 2+2=4. Yes a number MUST be assigned to be scientific. I was interested in this blog; because I wanted to give and get some REAL feedback, not your theory and blunderbusting: Rich you should let others take some of these ideas and pipe down. As for your "Welcome", I think your being a bit sarcastic. Respectfully Submitted Nikolas Horthy
     
  4. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Ratings of School

    As is your "Respectfully Submitted", no doubt. :D

    Have fun ;)
     
  5. NikolasHorthy

    NikolasHorthy New Member

    Thanks

    Really That is the way I sign everything...Respectfully Submitted Nikolas Horthy
     
  6. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Ratings of School

    Not a "blog"; a post.

    I stuck to the point. I provided you multiple uses of a term that you implied was incorrectly used. That makes you doubly wrong.

    No, it is not true that "a number must be assigned to be scientific." Much science is accomplished without quantitative methods. (Observations under controlled conditions, for example.)

    No sarcasm, but it is interesting that you would assume--without reason--as much.

    The rest of your post is merely argumentative. I've refuted your statements; re-stating them (poorly) doesn't change that. There's no reason to continue unless you actually post something substantive.

    I find it interesting that you've posted but 3 times, and all 3 have been designed to argue, not discuss. One wonders whether or not that will change.

    "Welcome" wasn't sarcastic. But perhaps it was premature.
     
  7. NikolasHorthy

    NikolasHorthy New Member

    Evaluation Systems

    Thanks Rich, Yours Truly, Nikolas Horthy
     
  8. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Evaluation Systems

    Oops.
     
  9. Kirkland

    Kirkland New Member

    When I read this proposal I heard singing... it was the furry fellow from the Wizard of Oz: "If I... were king...of the FOREST...!!"

    I say this because only a strong central force would be able to introduce and work through the process that would be required to generate such a list as well as maintain that evaluation annually and continually defend the conclusions.

    [a] I think it would require a yet-to-be determined scholastic foundation to do this work.
    It would be no mean feat in evaluating colleges especially universities, e.g. one dept. or school may be stronger than another regarding its impact on academia or business.
    [c] The assignment of factors and their values would be fraught with subjectivity on the part of the panel. Getting agreement on that one point could be monumental especially since the system boils everything down to two numbers: one for academia, one for business.
    [d] The opinions of a relatively small panel could be questioned. Why not base the evaluations on a much broader questionnaire and having the panel tabulate the results? The assignment of values must be indisputable especially since the responses would be varied and could represent a wide distribution.
    [e] I don't understand the premise of this proposal... it was presented as a means to evaluate unaccredited schools and yet the examples shown are accredited.
    [f] If we're talking accredited, approved, and licensed schools... there is already a body of reference information regarding schools for decision makers... US News, CHEA, US DOE, State Commissions, United Nations.
    [g] Personal interviews are the most effective and most commonly used methods for hiring decisions, not tabular listings.
    [h] Candidates may very likely present a portfolio of degrees from a number of schools... what then?... average them all, take the highest, the last earned, the most applicable, the best sounding?... and what about professional certifications from universities? shouldn't these be ranked as well?
    After all the wrangling to get down to the "two numbers" I think the effect and importance would be marginalized... As a result, I think it would probably be just as effective to publish an opinionated list from the outset.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2005
  10. ashton

    ashton New Member

    Business Unaccredited Degree Problems

    No, I've never seen anyone in private business world get fired for having an unaccredited degree. As far as I know, Jeffrey Papows, former chief at Lotus, decided to resign for reasons that actually had nothing to do with the allegations at the Infoworld web site. After all, at the time he resigned, he said there was no connection.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2005
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Business Unaccredited Degree Problems

    Nor would you, unless you witnessed it first-hand. The circumstances of private persons being discharged are normally kept private. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and I believe we've read some accounts on this board.
     
  12. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

    My personal opinion is that the suggestion to rate unaccredited schools is a great idea. I believe this would be useful with accredited schools too. I have worked with many college graduates over the past 25 years and I just can't find any logic how some of these people earned degrees from regionally accredited schools. "Professionals" with Bachelor's and Master's degrees who cannot put a sentence together, use awful and incorrect grammar and present themselves through their evaluations/reports/work that they have no clue as what they are talking about. It makes me crazy. In example, I worked with a social worker who was promoted to an unit manager position, not based on job performance but who you know. Anyway, I will quote a sentence she has written into a patient's treatment program. The term 'team' represents a multidisciplinary team (medical, psych, nurses, educators, PT, OT, etc.). The document started off, "As of are us the team, agreed that...". She is not the only one with such poor grammar. All of her documents were riddled with such stuff. Behold, she was promoted to Staff Development at the hospital to train others how to write treatment programs. I dreaded doing the utilization reviews on her records.

    I believe that there are good unaccredited schools. But the ones I speak of go through approval processes such as the BPPVE and their academic requirements are represented through their graduates and how they perform in their professions.

    Knowing a little about research, wouldn't it be very difficult to get valid and reliable stats from just looking at websites or listening to hearsay about schools? A criteria may include for the school to submit its course requirements per degree program, names and credentials of the faculty who teach, the satisfaction of the students, how the students do on standard exams (licensures, certification, etc.) and what happens to the learners after they graduate (what kind of jobs and where)?
     
  13. NikolasHorthy

    NikolasHorthy New Member

    Good Idea

    Robbie I completely agree. A multi-layered assessment of the courses, staff, degrees granted, accreditation and/or appoval, all factors should be considered. Can anyone think of more areas? I think Rich named a few also. This could lead to better assessments for the Public. This Board should really post a system everyone could use. Yours Truly, Nikolas Horthy
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Robbie
    Like PWU and Newport? I don't hear anyone call them good.
     
  15. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Re: Re: Business Unaccredited Degree Problems

    This is, in my experience, 100% true. The reasons for firing a person are completely confidential. Now the person being fired can say whatever they want but what are the chances that they would lean over to the other cubicles and say, "I'm being fired because they just figured out that I have a phony degree."
    Jack
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Kirkland
    I agree. The thread started out as criteria
    for evaluating the unaccredited.

    Me:
    "calling them good"
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I can say I've never heard of anyone being fired for having an accredited degree.
     

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