A PhD IN YOUR 40'S?!? How viable?

I second Peter on this--if there wouldn't be any serious drawbacks to CCU on your end of things, there's no reason not to go with it.


Cheers,

 

never too old to get your PhD

I'm in my early 30s right now, and got my BSEE when I was 22, MSEE at age of 25, and MSCS at age of 28. Unfortunately, I
dropped off my PhD study. Otherwise, I should be able to get
my PhD in EE before I was 30.

Well. Even though I'm working full time now, I never give up
my dream that one day I will get my PhD, and maybe a MBA
also. Again, unfortunately, TAMU-Commerce cancelled its online
MBA when I was 20% done.

When I started to work full time as an analog IC designer,
I realized that on-job training only is far from enough. I took
some courses at UC Extension in the night. But I always
feel that I should go back to campus to devote more time
in order to understand my subject in detail. My work schedule
is 9:30am to 9:30pm, plus over time during weekends. My
hands are full with my job duty. Don't really have enough
time to chew the books that I want to study.

Well. As a self-enrichment, it is never too late to study what
you want to learn, and get a PhD as an incentive for your
life long learning. At least, when I will has less confusion when
I'm old, and not be able to learn more.

 

Re: never too old to get your PhD

I agree with Jonathan.

I am a Gen Xer in his mid thirties. I have decided to use my VA benefits to study Christian Counseling and to that end I am working on a doctorate at a TRACS accredited school. I am not concerned with whether or not I will utilize the degree for career advancement. What concerns me is that it IS an accredited doctorate and that it IS a subject I strongly desire to study. I am fine career wise and this is for me. Jimwe, life is short and it is never too late (unless you are dead) to pursue your goals.

North

 

I respect Tom but I definately disagree with his viewpoint. Many will equate a degree from CCU with one from a degree mill. I can't say they are totally wrong. CCU is not and has never been a legitimate mainstream academic institution. In the 70's and 80's when dl was a concept regular academia had no interest in there was a case for unaccredited schools. With all the offerings from US, British, SA and Austrailian schools there no longer is. At best one could consider doing a PhD from one for self interest. Be prepared to never use it on a resume' or application.

If a PhD is worth doing isn't it worth doing a real PhD? We've seen over and over people put in hard work and a good amount of cash into an unaccredited degree only to be embarassed by the product. If the claim is the work is just as good as that put into an accredited degree why not get the real degree? If you can't justify the cost of a real degree why not put the money into courses that are legitimate even if a degree is not the result? With valid recognized SA and Austrailian PhD degrees available in the 2,000 to 5,000 range I think CCU and similiar institutions are an embarassing choice.

I am sorry for being so blunt but I think this is an important topic and deserves a direct reply. Good luck in whatever choice you make.

 

True, but it's quite possible that many people would consider any distance learning oriented school a degree mill. Dem's da risks.

It's not mainstream (mainstream is a 17-18 year old kid going to a residential college for four years), but to the best of my knowledge it has always been basically legitimate. If it wasn't, I don't think it would be California-approved; CCU could just as easily hop over to a state with far less stringent licensure requirements.

I'm not sure the case for or against is necessarily the issue here; obviously there's a very strong case against Tom Head pursuing a doctorate from an unaccredited school, because he wants to reserve the options of teaching at a university and writing scholarly books for university presses, and an accredited doctorate would have greater utility for these purposes--but when you move over to, say, John Gray, things get murkier. I think the issue should be dealt with on a student-by-student basis.

Well, not in Oregon; but in many states, it could be perfectly kosher. I would recommend as a point of ethics that folks mention on the resume that the degree is unaccredited, but if folks don't do that with Bob Jones University degrees, I guess it's not standard practice.

That depends on what constitutes a real Ph.D.; if you asked David Noble, no distance learning degree would be likely to qualify.

Which is why anyone interested in pursuing an unaccredited degree should make an informed decision and not choose something that will turn into a resume time bomb later--but I think you'll find that the vast majority of people who suffered for an unaccredited degree fully deserved to, because they bought it outright from an outfit like Columbia State. I haven't heard of any major scandals involving CCU graduates who didn't mislead people into believing their degrees were accredited.

To carry it a step further, the purest form of education would take place outside of an academic setting; you'd read books and join associations and form study groups and never get ego points for it. As a former homeschooler, I sympathize with this point of view to a certain extent--but if you have the option of earning a legitimate degree, even if it's not accredited, that at least gives you the opportunity to document your study in a meaningful way.

They would be for someone who wanted to teach a state university, and had no publications to bring to the table; and they would be for someone who wants to trick people into believing that he or she holds an accredited degree; but for a fair number of people, a legitimate unaccredited degree may very well do the job. The problem with South Africa is that it tends to be rather slow; the problem with Australia is that the degrees aren't in the 2,000 to 5,000 range; and the problem with research doctorates in general is that they're highly specialized and self-paced, which is just fine for people like me, but not so good for a fair number of other folks.

Not at all; this was a respectful and well-put reply, and this is not a topic on which I would expect to see universal agreement. Two years ago, I would have disagreed with my post.


Cheers,

 

Hi Tom

Thanks for taking my post they way it was intended. I definately see your point but a few issues tilt my opinion to the opposite side. Who knows in 10 years I may well change my opinion too.

I have to believe that most people who enter a degree program do so for the credential. As you point out learning is probably as easy when done independently. The majority of people and employers will see an unaccredited degree as being equal to a degree mill degree. Most will see RA or GAAP degrees as legitimate. I do not see a CCU program as being equal to a RA one. As has been pointed out the utility of a state approved degree will be much less than a RA one.

You mention that it would reasonable to list a CCU qualification if you followed it by unaccredited. I agree but I don't think I have ever seen a CCU degree listed that way. I dont think most graduate would list it that way. Also the effectiveness of it would be severely limited by doing so.

Lastly you point out that anyone considering an unaccredited program should consider its disadvantages long and hard before undertaking it. Again I agree but I believe the reality is that none of us really knows what we will be doing in 10 years. I may decide in 5 years teaching is my calling. I may decide I need to move to another state like Oregon. An accredited degree holds up in these situations while a unaccredited one fails.

I guess I remain unconvinced of why the unaccredited degree would be a better choice in any situation. If cost is the issue there are definately US, SA and Austrailian ones as cheap. On utility there is no question. The only reason I can understand is ease. If that is the case it isn't the equivilent of an accredited one. I also believe that with a wider variety of accredited choices now available that as a society we are moving away from unaccredited schools. We may see many disappearand. I think the ones that remain will have less and less utility.

Again thanks for your understanding. Perhaps this discussion will be of use to people trying to make a program choice.

 

I think that, if a person were pursuing employment other than self-employment a CCU would be a timebomb waiting to go off. Even if, a person was self employed and in a situation where there employment would invite criticism, a CCU degree could be a liability.

For example, say I started an institute for African American male teachers and I did a study focusing on black male teachers and concluded that institutional racism was keeping more black males from entering the educational field - that would invite criticism and a CCU degree could be a nice bullseye for critics...can you see....

"Educator who accused district of racism possesses unaccredited degree"

or the more ambitious

"Published researcher bought doctorate from diploma mill"

to be honest, I could see the following headline too....

"Controversial education reformer got degree by mail"

or even

"Critic of American education bought degree from Austrailia"

such is life....

 

If an individual who possesses an unaccredited doctorate was to list this on their resume or verbalize this as a fact during an interview with a prospective employer it is extemely likely that their opportuities for success would be precluded!

Secondly, comparing a non regionally accredited doctoral degree to a DL RA degree in terms of viability, usefullness and validity is clearly ludicrous. Although there may be off beat comments made at times to inidivudals with DL RA doctorates, the very fact that this degree has been obtained through a universally acccepted pathway assures its acceptance.

As noted previously, possesssion of non-accredited or state approved degrees do not meet the delineated requirements for practice in certain professions such as counseling, social work or psychology.

There is no doubt that there will be individuals with unaccredited doctorates who may succeed such as John Gray and others but these are anecdotal examples. The question to answer is whether they would have been successful without any degrees prior to concluding that their unaccredited degrees assisted them in their success.

Yes, for certain individuals an unaccredited or state approved doctorate may meet their needs but for the vast majority of individuals there is a signidicant risk involved in terms of being exposed and the potential loss of personal and professional credibility.

 

First, I want to commend everyone on their civility on this thread. I appreciate when we can disagree and still get along...

Second, to the question at hand. I say you are never too old to work on a PhD (or MBA or whatever). The only limiting factor is a person's motivation (joined with resources, such as "can I afford it..."). If a person is able and willing to apply themselves to the task, it is "do-able."
My own personal plans are to begin on my MA in Christian Studies, and soon (within a few months) add a MA in English (from Unizul, probably). I will probably go ahead and complete the English studies with the Doctorate.
By the time I get through all this, I will be pushing 40. I'm almost 33 now.
I say that if you want to pursue the PhD, you have the money and time to devote to it, then go for it.
My opinion as always,
clint

 

I agree with some of your concerns regarding non accredited degrees. I just do not think they are a good idea. There have been people who have posted that their CCU MBA was not up to RA standards and based on their posts the course requirements did not sound great.

As for non regionally accredited doctoral degrees, I am not sure what you mean. If you mean a TRACS accredited doctorate (which has recognized accreditation) or Foreign equivalent of accredited then I think you are correct that the usefulness in most cases but not all may be skewed in favor of the RA doctorate. There are some cases where what you are doing with your doctorate may mean that it is as useful with either accreditation. However, stating that comparing validity is *ludicrous* is itself inaccurate (again assuming that I am understanding the term non RA as you mean it). A TRACS accredited doctorate is valid in that TRACS is recognized by the US Dept of Ed and CHEA just as an RA agency is. They are equally valid in that sense. Foreign equivalents are recognized in their own contexts in the same way. Again, RA is certainly the most versatile.

As to the issue that RA DL doctorates are "assured acceptance", this is probably an over statement. That is not to say that Walden or Argosy graduates may not obtain full time faculty positions at major State Universities but I would guess there is some prejudice. I know I have encountered it in contacts from a Cornell Ph.D. & a Texas A&M Ph.D. (both top schools) who were not too pleased with the idea and given the chance would probably discriminate against DL doctorates. One of the Ph.D's said "Oh, so with a DL Ph.D. you basically buy the degree". The other almost threw up at the thought. He was appalled and certain such a concept was not academically sound. Both of them were in their thirties. What I also wonder is if a DL Ph.D. from the University of Wales or an Aussie university would have an easier time of navigating the job market than someone with a doctorate from one of the known DL Ph.D. programs (eg. Union, Argosy, Walden, Capella).

North

 

Go for it!

It is never ever too late to earn a degree--whatever level it may be. By 45, I plan to earn a second doctorate. May be not. Who knows. But, I hope that I can continue to learn and certify my learning along the way.

Go get your PhD and don't look behind you!

 

North: agree with some of your concerns regarding non accredited degrees. I just do not think they are a good idea. There have been people who have posted that their CCU MBA was not up to RA standards and based on their posts the course requirements did not sound great.

Response: I would not recommend an unaccredited degree to any individual who is concerned with their professional credibility and wish to maximize their career opportunities.

North: As for non regionally accredited doctoral degrees, I am not sure what you mean. If you mean a TRACS accredited doctorate (which has recognized accreditation) or Foreign equivalent of accredited then I think you are correct that the usefulness in most cases but not all may be skewed in favor of the RA doctorate.

Response: In the USA, regional accreditation is the "gold Standard" amongst all other accreditation processes. Yes, TRACS is a valid form of accreditation in specific contexts but not as universally accepted as is RA. GAAP is also acceptable and valid but generally not in the same playing field as RA.

North: There are some cases where what you are doing with your doctorate may mean that it is as useful with either accreditation. equally valid in that sense.

Response: This may be true!

North: Foreign equivalents are recognized in their own contexts in the same way. Again, RA is certainly the most versatile

Response: GAAP degrees definitely have merit and value, however as you note, RA degrees generally is the way to go!

North: As to the issue that RA DL doctorates are "assured acceptance", this is probably an over statement. That is not to say that Walden or Argosy graduates may not obtain full time faculty positions at major State Universities but I would guess there is some prejudice.

Response: What was meant by "assured acceptance" is that degrees emanating from regional accreditated programs are based on the most highly regarded and accepted standards and criteria established in the USA. By no means did I mean to apply that it was a guaranted ticket to success! Also I was not only refering to this acceptance within academia but across all professional disciplines.


North: I know I have encountered it in contacts from a Cornell Ph.D. & a Texas A&M Ph.D. (both top schools) who were not too pleased with the idea and given the chance would probably discriminate against DL doctorates. One of the Ph.D's said "Oh, so with a DL Ph.D. you basically buy the degree". The other almost threw up at the thought. He was appalled and certain such a concept was not academically sound. Both of them were in their thirties.

Response: On the other hand, a friend of mine received a doctorate in mathematics/physics from one of the top Ivy League Schools in the US. He applied for approximately sixty-five positions in academia but was only offered one untenured position at a grade C university.

As I previously noted, there will be situations and contexts where questions will be raised as well as skepticism indicated regarding DL degrees. However, possessing a doctorate from an RA DL program still connotes that its possessor has the intellectual and personal characteristics to have attained such an accomplishment. A doctorate from an unaccredited or state approved school does not convey the same message and in fact may lead to being labeled as someone who is attempting to beat the system.

North: What I also wonder is if a DL Ph.D. from the University of Wales or an Aussie university would have an easier time of navigating the job market than someone with a doctorate from one of the known DL Ph.D. programs (eg. Union, Argosy, Walden, Capella).

Response: There are many factors involved beyond where the degree is derived from. These include personality characterisitcs that mesh well with the prospective employer and the level of persuasive and communicative skills the applicant displays (as well as others).

[/B][/QUOTE]

 

Simon,

Very well balanced and accurate response.

North

[/B][/QUOTE]

 

In response to the original question...
Have you read the thread on the off-topics list about the 95 year old who finally got a degree?

I guess it is possible...

clint

 

I guess the answer is YES. My impression is that a PhD by DL from a mostly residential university is more acceptable than
one from a mostly/pure DL university.

Back to the old A.E.D. days, one gave me a tip that a
professor at a major US university with a Wales - Cardiff
PhD earned nontraditionally. I checked the professor's
web page, but didn't verify it with himself.

Well. U Wales sounds more familiar than any one in your eg. list.
Right?

 

This is an interesting question, one I hope to (help) answer with my doctoral dissertation.

As a Union Institute learner, I have experienced a rather large break in my program (almost 8 years!). I left in late 1994 and will resume this June. During that interim, I considered several alternatives to returning to Union. I looked at schools in the UK, South Africa, Australia, and (gasp!) danced with--but didn't study with--MIGS.

(I considered seriously IMC, Technikon of Southern Africa, UNISA, Charles Sturt, Central Queensland, and Southern Queensland. The whole do-it-all-from-the-U.S. question seemed impenatrable to me. Sturt definitely wants to see you once on campus now. IMC wants you in Toronto on occasion. TSA said I could do the DTech degree from the U.S., but didn't comment on any required trips to SA. The rest were murky about the subject.)

In my career situation, a properly issued foreign doctorate would do just fine. However, if I had my "druthers," I druther have one from a U.S. school. (This assumes we are excluding world-famous foreign schools.) I suspect there would be fewer questions asked, especially in industry. For example, The Union Institute appears in every commonly used guide of accredited schools in the U.S. But I'd be concerned about getting screened out from opportunities without getting the opportunity to explain why a Sturt DBA is a good degree.

I'm hoping to finish my Union Ph.D. next Spring, BTW.

 

Jimwe,

Only 45, eh? If all goes as planned, I should finish my DBA next year (I will finish my last class this week, start comps in May, and dissertation in June). I will be 51 (I expect to finish it late in the year). You can be 45 with a PhD or 45 without one. The choice is really yours.

I teach at Universit of Phoenix. I had one gent in my stats class that was in his 60's. A friend of mine finished her BS at age 60. Don't let your chronological age get in the way.

If you think the PhD will add something to your life, whether financially, professionally, or as a goal, then do it!

Russ

http://www.blahetka.com

 

When I finished my first USNY Regents bachelor's, I attended the commencement in Albany. (It was 1980, and I was stationed with the Air Force in nearby Massachusetts.) I thought I was pretty special, having finished by degree at age 20. I might have even been the youngest in my "class," but there was no way of knowing that. However, I found out what truly qualified as special on that day: a local news channel doing a story on the commencement was interviewing a 78-year-old gentleman who was the oldest in our class receiving a bachelor's degree. In fact, it wasn't our class; that guy had all the "class" there was that day.

 

Rich,

Good luck with your studies. By next year we will be able to call you Dr. "D".

Somewhat off topic. How did the Air Force perceive the senior members (Officers) of the Civil Air Patrol? I understand that in addition to the cadet program the senior members are also involved in most of the inland search and rescue in the US & also pilot drug interception flights.

To keep this DL I understand that CAPS members have access to the DL component of the Air University which was far better developed than the army's was at the time I was in. We did not have a community college of the army.

North

 

Honestly, we didn't take the uniformed component of the Civil Air Patrol too seriously. In fact, I didn't care for the fact that they wore the same uniform (with some minor modifications) and insignia of grade. Being an officer in the Civil Air Patrol is a far cry from being an Air Force commissioned officer.

The missions they performed--search and rescue and the cadet program--were highly admired.

CAP officers were given access to ECI courses comparable to their "real" counterparts. This did not include CCAF, by the way. But it did include professional military education by correspondence (from ECI--or whatever the Air Force is calling it these days).

Hmmm, maybe I should consider getting involved with their cadet program. I was Commandant of Cadets at the Air Force ROTC unit at San Diego State for 4 years. (That's real ROTC, where our graduates became officers, as opposed to high school ROTC.) The experience might be fun, and maybe I can become a CAP colonel, along with the real captain that I am (and always will be--retired and all that)!