17 rules for being a good Democrat

Aren't you a PAYASO? Let's use the term snowflake babies then. I think Dr. Douglas understood what I was saying. Thanks for weighing in though.

Abner

 

I had to look up 'PAYOSO'... funny

Anyway... my point is this:

The truth is that your argument is actually quite logical. Anyone that is adamantly against abortion, as I am, should also be against the practices that are done every day at fertility clinics. To throw away a life that has been conceived is unacceptable... no matter the stage of conception. I do not mind fertility clinics trying to help women conceive, but the practice of throwing away ‘less than optimal’ fertilized babies is something that every pro-lifer should be disgusted by.

 

Well, I agree with you on that. I believe women should have the right to choose an abortion as a last resort if they wish. Nobody is trying to sign them up "on demand" as the right wingers like to say. Here in Orange County, we have a lot of pro choice Republicans.

I am also puzzled why men ponder over this issue so much. They are not capable of having a child like a women, so I think they should keep their traps shut.

Just my opinion,

Abner

Castilian Spanish - Payaso - Valencia Spanish - Pagliacci (clown). You are not a clown.

 

I don't really see it as a male/female issue. No one sex should have more responsibility for choosing whether or not a baby should live or die. A life is a life no matter how you slice it.

Would you be comfortable saying that only women should be allowed to decide if someone should go to death row for murder? Are women somehow more morally qualified to make human life and death decisions?

 

I am simply saying the women is the one carrying the baby, and in essence stuck with the baby for life. The man can opt to split any time, which happens a lot.

This is not a moral issue for me. To me this is merely a personal issue between a women, here doctor, and her faith. I go with the scientific version of when life begins.

Abner

 

scientific version? do tell...

 

http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/images/LargePRINT.pdf


Abner

 

The ‘real’ world does operate differently … a world of secular, quite carnal, leanings. And I don’t require legislation by politicians /lawmakers to delineate ‘personhood’ (e.g., Fetus – a worldly attempt to dehumanize an unborn child).

 

A zygote is a fertilized egg by definition. The egg needs to fertilized at just the right time or the pregancy doesn't proceed. If it is fertilized in the uterus or near the fallopian tube exit then the uterus goes on with the period. When this happens then the fertilized egg dies.

 

When they do invirto-fertilization, they will frequently end up fertilizing multiple eggs and then will only insert one of the ones that seems to be developing normally. Should the people that throw away the unused fertilized eggs be prosecuted for murder?

 

The practice of purposely fertilizing multiple eggs with the intention of discarding those that are not ideal is the practice that I find morally objectional.

Regarding the women's period issue; you are stretching there. There is no intent to end a life in that case. With abortion and this type of invitro-fertilization the intention is clear: We will discard life that we find of little or no use for our immediate purposes.

 

So, it would seem that you accept that the loss of some human life is less of a problem than other? We don't need to morn the frequent loss of human life when women have a period that contains a fertilized egg. Because no one really knew there was a fertilized egg in the discharge unless it was put there by invitro-fertilization. When someone knows that they are discarding a fertilized egg in the invitro-fertilization process then it is a cause for more concern. When someone commits manslaughter because they were being reckless but weren't trying to harm anyone then it is cause for even more concern. When somone commits first degree murder in the act of raping and murdering a young person then that would be cause for even more concern. Assuming that this is all true then I have to say, see we're not really so far apart. We just feel that the line of legal versus illegal should be drawn in a slightly different spot on a similar shared scale. Perhaps some other little differences of opinion like where capital punishment might also fall on the same scale?

 

I think that you have summed it up pretty well. It is all in degrees of intent. I might diagree slightly with your scale though.

Someone who intentionally kills a life in the womb would not be on the same scale as a manslaughter, that would have to fall closer to the first-degree murder example because of the intent issue.

Also, this is not an issue of mourning... it is an ethical issue of how we protect and define human life.

Regarding capital punishment... to your likely surprise... I am against it

 

A very good topic for discussion indeed! In fact a democratic is a person who believes in the rights of every individual irrespective of caste, creed, color or country...

 

That sounds like a Republican

 

Dude, that is soooooooooooo Al Gore!!!!!!!!!!!

 

On abortions...interesting debate. In Texas I could not get life insurance for my newborn daughter until she was 10 days old and another company told me 14 days old. It was truly shocking...yet she most definitely at that point was fully human.

In Texas, if you kill the fetus of a pregnant woman, you will face murder charges.

In Texas, if a woman elects to kill the same fetus, it's a "choice".

Personally I think even in a state like Texas, known for being conservative if quirky, there is a ton of seeming contradictions in both law and business. I do not think it is the government nor private enterprise's place to state what is and is not life. I think life just "is", but I'm something of a hippie like that.

As to the argument of is a fetus human...well, if left to his/her own devices it will never emerge as a cat, a chicken, a fish, it will always emerge human, thus I would imagine calling a fetus "human" is a safe bet. As to whether it is a person, I guess you would have to draw a distinction between humans and persons, being a former cop I can tell you I've met several persons that I wouldn't consider "human" (sarcasm).

As to a woman being stuck for life with a baby, not so, there are plenty of options for adoption. My wife and I are actually planning on adopting 2 children and are getting some first hand experience in it. BTW, if you want to adopt a newborn get ready to wait, and wait, and wait.

As for fertility clinics I would venture a guess that most people who are "pro-life" are unaware as whether fertilized embryos are discarded or not. I know I've personally never considered it but now that you've pointed it out, a clinically disgarded embryo is akin to abortion if at that point you deem it to be life. Personally I haven't given it much thought. I know when watching my daughter in the womb at the doctor's office, we were all about the heartbeat.

Another interesting observation, I have a very close "pro-choice" friend go to a fertility clinic, become pregnant and have a miscarriage two weeks later. All of a sudden it went from being just an "embryo" or "fetus" to her baby when she lost it, the emotional trauma she suffered was painful to watch.

I thought I was pro-life before my daughter was born. Watching her actually come into the world though drove home my pro-life position with ringing clarity, at least to me. So I personally am agains abortions.

Also in just listening to many pro-choice advocates is what origionally drove me to being pro-life, I always found the rhetoric to be extreme, the conversations inevitably went the direction of "what about rape" and "what about incest" and "what about women's rights", etc. I just wasn't convinced.

Anyhow, interesting topic.

Oh and I am pro-capital punishment. I'm sure there are cops that are not, but I haven't met one.

 

Nice post friendorfoe

I think that the scales for bmills and I are closer since my scale is also based on intent and state of the mind of the person doing the termination. That being the case, an execution by the state is the most cold blooded kind of termination with no remorse. Of course, worse would be torture and killing and that kind of thing.

On the other hand, if we lived in a tribal society then an execution agreed upon by tribal decision makers could be considered more of a self defense mechanism, for example, if the person has killed other members of the tribe.