Why not Harvard?

LOL...now I feel better about myself

BTW, I have put this watch through hell and it doesn't even have a scratch. Best darn watch I ever did own!

 

Was it a great opportunity because you learned a lot, or because you can now say you took some courses through Harvard?

First off, I wasn't "bashing" Harvard, just poking fun at the self-important attitudes of their graduates (my sister-in-law is one). Being in Boston, you should know this better than anyone.

Second, you can get earn all the degrees you want through Harvard Extension, you're still not going to be treated as an equal by the people who went to regular Harvard. Bet on it.

 

Bruce wrote:

> Was it a great opportunity because you learned a lot, or
> because you can now say you took some courses through
> Harvard?

Both.

There were fringe benefits, as well. I joined the Harvard University Choir. We sang under Christopher Hogwood, did a joint concert with the Harlem Boys Choir, and did a concert with Livingston Taylor at which James Taylor was a suprise guest soloist! (I sang a short solo in that concert, too.) I got a Harvard library card (Harvard libraries are not open to the public), and had great fun exploring the collections.

Learning is not limited to course content. I learned about the Harvard culture, and I'm happy to be able to converse about that.

>> Even if you all want to do is bash Harvard,
>
> First off, I wasn't "bashing" Harvard,

Sorry, generic "you".

> just poking fun at the self-important attitudes of their
> graduates (my sister-in-law is one). Being in Boston, you
> should know this better than anyone.

I've heard the jokes about Harvard snobbery, but I've never encountered any actual Harvard snobbery. But maybe that's just I.

> Second, you can get earn all the degrees you want through
> Harvard Extension,

No more degrees for me, thank you. I'm happy with my Canadian degrees.

> you're still not going to be treated as an equal by the people
> who went to regular Harvard. Bet on it.

I've spent quite a bit of time on the Harvard campus. Since I look too old to be a student, most people assume I'm a professor there.

 

"regular" Harvard students don't even treat each other as equals . Being on campus this summer, I've heard students from the medical school make fun of students from the divinity school. Guys from the law school make fun of people from the Forestry School, and guys from the undergraduate college make fun of almost everyone else except the med school guys. They seem to be held in universally high esteem, then again, I haven't met enough people on campus to make such a generalization.

You know what? It's pretty much the same way here as it was when I was an undergraduate at Georgetown. We made horrible fun of the nursing school students (until they wound up getting job offers greater than we did). Thats just the way it is when you go to a school with an elitist mentality. I'm sure that when and if I enroll in the doctoral program and get my PhD from Harvard some undergraduates will still say "But he didn't go to the college " Some med school grads will still say "A PhD is nothing compared to what we went through". Oh well, looks like I won't be universally accepted no mater what I do .

Jon

 

Actually, I wouldn't mind taking a class from Harvard Extension. The Neurobiology course looks very interesting, and the American Constitutional History courses do too.
They seem to have a nice selection of classes; unfortunately, many of the ones that look the most intriguing aren't offered online.
Thanks for the heads-up on the cost; I may look into taking a course from there this fall and transferring it to UML.

 

BillDayson wrote:

> If the best reason for enrolling at Harvard Extension is the
> opportunity to name-drop the word 'Harvard' (assuming that
> I'm willing to collapse the distinction between Harvard and
> Harvard Extension), I remain unmoved.
>
> I think that there are almost certainly better educational
> opportunities for me out there.

OK, Bill, let me ask you this (I'm not trying to "move" you, but I might learn something from your response):

Suppose you pursue a "better educational opportunity" at University U, and then apply for job J at employer E. The other candidate for job J is C. C has studied at Harvard and University V. In his interview, C says to E, "Yes, I did take some courses at Harvard, but I found the courses at V were actually better."

You think you have better credentials than C. But how, without name-dropping, do you convince E of that?

 

Mark,

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Harvard is a worthy name to drop if one is to drop a name. But, notice that Bill said "...for me..."

For me the name Harvard would be a waste of my resources (time, money, commitments, etc.), and of course...pointless. Ultimately, I have no reason to go there. Why am I not going to Oxford or Cambridge? The utility of the degree [for me] would be no different than a degree from a generic state college.

I might ask the question, "Why not a Hugo Boss suit?" When that question is posed to Farmer Bob (provided he knew what I was talking about), he would either question my motives for asking the question or simply laugh at my arr/ignorance for asking it. Then when I give Farmer Bob the option "Is it because it is too expensive or because they don't have your size?" He might stab me with his pitch fork

I like Farmer Bob better than the TAG

 

> Oxford or Cambridge?

This is a forum about distance learning, and Harvard offers online courses to the general public. If Oxford or Cambridge has started something similar, please let us know.

The Great Gatsby notwithstanding, Cambridge is probably the top British school, because Oxford is a bit weaker in sciences. If you say you went to Cambridge, the first question people will ask you is "Which college?" The correct response is "King's, actually." Anything else may make you look as uncouth as Farmer Bob.

 

Advanced Diploma in Local History via the Internet

Right there.

 

If I thought that I had strong credentials, I would obviously give the reasons why I thought that my credentials were strong.

Out here where I live, we already have UC Berkeley Extension. It offers on-site classes not far from my home. So if I were somehow convinced that attending extension classes offered by a prestige university is what I should be doing, that's probably where I would go.

But it's also the case that pretty much everyone out here knows that taking open-admissions Berkeley Extension classes is not the same thing as attending UC Berkeley. Nobody's gonna wet his pants if you put a Berkeley Extension class on your resume, and I'm sure the same thing would be true of Harvard Extension. They are undoubtedly good classes and quite worthwhile, but that's about all you can say. Other schools and programs can say precisely the same thing.

But all of this is artificial. You asked us to justify why we aren't currently enrolled in Harvard Extension. I told you that I have (and need) no more reason for not-studying at Harvard Extension than I do for not-studying at any other of the 3,000+ colleges and universities out there. It's simply the default condition to not be enrolled at a particular university, unless a student has some reason to be enroll there. The reason why I'm not enrolled at Harvard Extension is because I don't have any real reason that motivates me to do so.

I have other options that are more attractive to me right now, for multiple reasons. (Name-dropping prestige universities' extension divisions to prospective employers falls very low on my own personal list.)

 

Mark,

Oxford along with Yale and and Stanford offer courses through AllLearn. However, AllLearn courses are not for credit.

"AllLearn provides the highest-quality distance learning programs to the alumni, family, and friends of the University of Oxford, Stanford University, and Yale University as well as to others who have an interest in lifelong learning. We deliver a rich Catalog of arts and sciences courses authored by faculty from our member universities. Each course is taught by an expert instructor skilled in providing excellent insight into the subject matter as well as in guiding students through the online educational experience. Take our Course Tour to find out what a course is like.

Our online courses are complemented by our Library, which includes our Academic Directories and Learning Guides, the richest and the most reliable study resources anywhere on the Web. Created by academic specialists from our member universities, our Academic Directories bring together the best academic websites across a range of subjects, evaluated and reviewed for your convenience. Our Learning Guides offer a series of resources-a curriculum if you will-that will allow you to study a specific topic on your own. Each Learning Guide identifies essential online and offline resources-books, online text, lectures, websites, and more-to help direct your studies."

http://www.alllearn.org/

 

As Bill Dayson pointed out, there isn't a heckuva big difference between UC Berkeley and Harvard Extensions if you just want to take classes. The big difference, though, is that UCB Ext. doesn't offer degrees.

The Harvard Extension ALM in IT looks very interesting, and unique, from what I've seen (abstract algegra, and computation of pi are two of the courses), but the residency requirement is a deal killer for me.

If I lived near Cambridge, I'd be there. Alas, I'll have to wait until they expand their online offerings and relax the residency.

There is certainly a difference between Extension and regular Harvard when it comes to prestige and marketability (as well as name dropping if that's important). The main appeal to me is the uniqueness of their offerings.

Tom57

 

Yeah, that is a big difference. For most of the top schools people can usually take classes there using a non-degree option, or as a student-at-large. However, to be enrolled in and finish one of the degree granting programs is a completely different ball game.

The University itself makes a big distinction between those taking classes and those enrolled in the degree program. For example, I can't find one benefit that enrolled degree canidates in all of the other of Harvards 12 schools get that enrolled degree canidates in the extension school do not. Furthermore, recipients of the degree have FULL alumni/ae status from the university. The University considers them equal with the other schools. To qoute some documentation I received from the university with regards to the ALM in IT degree:


Is the ALM a real Harvard degree?
Yes. ALM graduates are Harvard alumni and alumnae, and the program of study is in every way as challenging as that of graduate degree programs in other Harvard schools.


While harvard has open admissions for its extension classes, the degree programs are certainly not open addmissions. The courses required for the degree are fairly rigorous and thorough. And IMHO they seem to be making the program more demanding every year. This is something I am strongly in favor of. As for courses, my own curriculum looks like it will have a 50-60% overlap in courses with the graduate courses in the Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences. By overlap, I mean that these are the EXACT SAME COURSES as those in the day school. The teachers are the same, the homework's the same. In fact, they are videotaped from the day classes.

Comments Welcome,

Jon

 

Jon,

Thanks for the information. It was interesting to hear Harvard's own position on the degree. Harvard Extension's admission policy is not unlike a growing number of other schools'. In fact, its extension program could be compared to the University of London External, where I am doing a masters. That is, you may not have to jump through as many hoops in admissions compared to internal students, but the curriculum itself does the weeding out. The courses are demanding (often with tough prerequesites), and so by making it through, you, in effect, have performed your own selection process. This makes sense for the schools in that they can maximize their revenues by opening their programs up to the maximum number of students. They provide the curriculum and rigor and leave it to the students to work their way through it. If you make it, you've earned it. If not, then no degree. Makes a lot of sense.

Tom

 

Online courses from Oxford and Cambridge.

There's also the Diploma in Computing via the Internet and the MStud in International Human Rights Law, both of which are mainly distance taught.

Details for all three available from the Oxford University Department for Continuing Education web site . All three are already full for 2003 entry, however.

Disclaimer: I no longer have anything to do with OUDCE or TALL, but I do admit that I did a large amount of the initial development work for both Diploma courses and was involved in the student selection process for the first cohort of the Computing Diploma.

Angela

 

Angela,

Thanks for the info. Do you know anything about Oxford's DPhil in Software Engineering. I sent the people there an email inquiry, but the only thing they told me was that it was part time. I haven't been able to find any information on the admissions requirements, residency periods, or research that candidates are involved in. Any info would be great.

Thanks,

Jon