Is a Bachelor Degree useless?

Does the 17% include unaccredited degrees and people who are lying?

 

Rich,

I understand that you have worked in education for 24 years, and that you hold 2 associate's degrees. However, the above statement is simply not true for all associate's degrees.

The bulk of my job is dealing with "applied" associates degrees -- A.A.A. or A.A.S. I can assure you that these degrees are not a "consolation prize." And most of them are certainly not the first half of a bachelor's degree. Applied associate's degrees are not designed for academic transfer. I suspect that approximately 80-90% of people seeking *applied* associate's degrees have absolutely no intention of completing any higher degree.

And it's not that they are dropping out. It's not that they are getting some "consolation prize" as you have suggested. Before entering these programs, most of them are working near-minimum-wage jobs. An applied associate's degree is often the crucial credential for jobs that pay far more. These students want to earn an applied associate's degree not only to make more money but to have an occupation, not just a job.

And sure, people with Ph.D.'s can scoff at them and say that an associate's degree is worthless, that it's not really a degree. And yet those same Ph.D.'s will be shocked to find that their plumber makes more per hour than they do.

Jeff

 

How many times to I have to point out that I was speaking generally, and that I acknowledged that there are exceptions, even going so far as to point out that these "exceptions" are prevalent to the technical and vocational fields?

My comments about the relative value of associate's degrees has nothing to do with me having degrees beyond that level. They come from experience in this field.

As for plumbers, are you seriously suggesting that their high rates of pay are a result of having an associate's degree? Perhaps their technical skills and licensure preponderate instead?

Let me reiterate:

1. The associate's degree emerged about 100 years ago as a means for recognizing those who finished junior college but did not go on to universities.

2. The associate's degree, historically, has been the first half of a bachelor's degree; the junior (now community) colleges were "feeder" schools to universities.

3. There are many associate's degree programs that are designed to stand on their own, especially in the vocational and technical fields.

4. When people talk about having a "degree," they mean the bachelor's, not the associate's. Take a look at the number of ads that require a bachelor's compared to those requiring an associate's. It's like night and day.

There. Agree or disagree, I don't care. But don't attribute causes for my opinions that I haven't stated. And don't change my points and then refute them. The ones I make are certainly refutable enough!

 

Does value include working in the degreed field? If you have a degree in mathematics, but are working as a fry cook for a fast food resturant, of what value is that degree? Or to be more realistic...with the economic downturn in the IT field in my area, if one can not secure employment with their IT degree and must work in other fields, then of what value is that degree?

 

Bill - I believe I know what you're saying here and and you're point is a good one: one component of value is scarcity. However, I believe that in this country education IS available to everyone. It may be more readily available to some based on their socioeconomic status, etc. but there's nothing to stop any motivated person from attending college at any level.
Jack

 

8.6% hold advanced degrees (I must assume this includes masters). So I did a little math as they list quantities of degrees awarded (based on 1998 numbers).

Bachelors: 1,183,033
masters: 429,926
doctor's: 45,924
First Professional (e.g. law, medicine, & theology): 78,353

Of the degree holders above only 2.6% are doctors (Not including 1st professional)

A little bit of extrapolation from the data presented may give us a rough figure as the 30 and older crowd accounts for about 58% of the population (approx. 287.6M). This would put the doctor figure at around 0.03% of the population (again, not including 1st prof.). There is a slight mixing of numbers between 2000 figures and 1998 figures so I would call is a rough estimate and if we factor in the 1st professionals we could estimate doctoral degree holders as less than 1% of the pop.

John.

 

I don't think that is true, at least not in Florida, where most of the nurses I know are ASN nurses. Two of the best nurses I know are 3 year diploma nurses.

Although more and more ADNs are going to RN->BSN I think it is primarily for promotion purposes. I could walk into any hospital in Florida and get a job as an RN in seconds. My nursing degree is an AS. I do have other undergraduate and graduate degrees but even if I omitted them I could interview today and start tomorrow, as could most nurses in Florida.

But for management positions ( who would want one) many hospitals prefer a BS - not necessarily a BSN. I don't think other nurses think ADN's are less capable but administration might.

I would rather have a ADN with two years experience as my nurse than a new 4 year BSN. You don't learn much in nursing school, you learn it by taking care of patients. I can explain heart sounds to you but you can't really recognize lub-dub, lub-dub until you actually auscultate it with your own stethescope.

It is interesting to note that nurses - who can give narcotics, paralytics, and other dangerous drugs can have a 2 year degree but physical therapists who preform few if any potentially fatal procedures must have a 4 year degree. I am certain that the nursing shortage has a great deal to do with that. If there were a surplus of nurses 4 year degrees would be the norm.

 

Let me reiterate:

Rich Douglas your views on the value of an Associate Degree are out of date and not applicable to the year 2003. I'm not going to keep arguing this with you. There are people that come here for help and you are not helping them with your posts about things you don't know about.

 

These numbers seem to be a bit low. Do these stats include those who have migrated to the U.S. Canada alone loses 2,000 graduates each year to the U.S. (mostly graduate degrees - engineers, nurses and physicians). In recent years (since 1995) more than 1,200 professionals from South Africa have migrated to the U.S.
China and India lose a significant number of professionals each year. Most of them migrate to North America (these numbers are available on Statistics Canada's web site).

 

Thank you. Forgive me if I disagree.

 

For the Professional workforce, an AA Degree is not useful - So I have to agree with Rich.

 

Since 1974, over half of the associate's degrees awarded in the U.S. have been occupational (meaning that they are terminal degrees intended as a credential for entry into the workforce.) This is based on a 1987 article by T.D. Snyder in the "Digest of Education Statistics." The percentage of occupational degrees continued to rise through the end of the time frame covered. By 1987, 72% of associate's degrees were occupational. (I'm sure I could find more up-to-date data, but I don't have the time or inclination. Based on my daily experience, I'm confidant that the percentage is well over half.)

To me, stating that an associate's degree is the first half of a bachelor's degree, with some exceptions, is like stating that cars, with some exceptions, can not travel faster than 100 miles per hour. It used to be generally true, and it is still true for some cars today. But the exceptions referred to are actually the more common case, so the statement is misleading.

 

If it boils down to interpretation, I'm glad to accept Jeff's.

 

There is no comparison in the data presented between degrees awarded and country of origin. It is the population as a whole.

If we look at the census quick facts then 24.4% of the US population has a bachelors degree or higher of those over 25. http://quickfacts.census.gov/ and http://www.census.gov/prod/3/98pubs/p20-513.pdf
Anyway, I haven't seen any numbers that would show the number of doctors differently and it would have to be a significant increase when compared against the entire population.

Here is some interesting info -- the unemployment rate for folks with a Bachelor degree or higher is the lowest when compared against other educational attainment. The Associate degree is the next lowest. See: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/digest2001/ch5.asp#f24

John

 

Value of a degree

I realize this is really, really old thread, but wanted to comment on this. I have found this to be a very valid point. My BS from TESC is literally *almost* worthless to me personally in terms of what it has done for my career and income. Yes, it cost the American taxpayers somewhere around $175,000 to get me that degree (most of my credits came from specialized military training programs), but it's still economically almost worthless to me. And I know a large number of computer engineers in my area that would say the same about their degrees.

In fact, I also know two JD's that claim that their law degrees are economically worthless to them.

-Jassen

 

I don't think the administrators think that ADN and diploma nurses are less capable as nurses -- the general feeling is that they are less capable (than BSN, MSN, MPH, BS holders) managers, communicators, and administrators.

As to the original question: I remember hearing 25 years ago that a bachelor's degree would soon have no value. "by 2000 a college degree will be like a HS diploma is now" they said.

I also remember hearing that there are too many PhDs, that the MBA is no longer relevant, that "this guy got a master's degree and couldn't find a job so he works at McDonalds", etc... It seems to be a recuring warning of gloom and doom ahead. And yet, the doom and gloom doesn't come.

IMHO - there are many folks who are not candidates for post-secondary education. They either don't have the motivation or don't have the requisite inteligence. That's ok -- we need them in society to do jobs that don't require a college education. The percentage of these folks in society may change over time -- but it will remain that those with more education will generally earn more than those without.

Those with more education will find themselves with fewer and shorter periods of unemployment over their lifetime. Those with more education will find far more doors open to them than those without.

Maybe: just maybe, we tend to perceive that more people have the same level of education that we do because, as we advance through our education, we tend to socialize with (and work around) people with a similar educational experience. We don't tend to get an MSc and then go work on the road repair crew (where many employees don't have a HSD) and similar jobs.

just a thought...

 

I remember a time when just having an associate's degree meant one of two things:
1- You had finished all the education you were ever going to get for your particular profession, and were thus an expert in your field. You were not expected to go any further in your formal education because you had reached the pinnacle of it by means of the Associate's degree. Now, you were expected to become a master of the art which endeavored (machining, public safety, technology, etc).
2- You had begun your educational pursuits, and the Associate's was a test of your determination to continue to pursue education, for the Associate's was the beginning of your particular profession. You were expected to further in your education because you had passed the initial test of your determination.

 

I agree with most of what you said however there are many people who are extremely intelligent who chose not to go to college for various reasons. People that have skills in trades or art don't necessarily need a college degree to be successful in their chosen field. Because somebody chooses to work with their hands and do manual labor certainly doens't mean they aren't intelligent they just see little utility in college education.

My experience has been that education is important but work experiences are what really establishes your career. I certainly don't need a masters degree to be a police officer but I went to grad school because I like learning and have an apptitude for it. I hope it will help me in my career endeavors but there are definitely people within my own organization who can take a different path and don't need a graduate degree to get to where they want to be. All things being equal most organizations I've been exposed to count experience much more than education.

 

I didn't mean to imply that all people without a college degree are too stupid to get one -- simply that some people don't have the abilities required. sorry 'bout that.

 

Me Again, I can't agree more with you that the Bachelor Degree is becoming useless as the entry requirements to Post graduate degrees are numbed down especially with some antipodean universities. One can pursue an MBA without need for a Bachelors degree which use to be the case but no longer.

Secondly, you have brought up a very good issue in that degrees as a whole are loosing their lustre as employers realise achievements not just academic are important in the corporate world. The credentialist approach was good to a certain point but now because of the oversupply and overhang of graduates and postgraduates in the market, those letters after your name are beginning to lose their importance. Save of course you went through a certain exercise and discipline to get those letters.