Why the diploma mill bashing?

I remember reading in Bears guide this statistic.

There was a year were Kensington Univ had 60% pass on CA Bar exams.

 

Dennis Roark

> This was many years ego, today this is not possible.

Oh, but it is!

Read the story of Dennis Roark:

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/qdoc3.htm

 

Mark Israel Wow !!!

I read the story and I'm shocked.
I take my words back, unbelivable, how many go undetected?

The system is not bulletproof and con man can by-pass it.

Still its a good guard dog and reduces the fraud significantly.

Thanks for posting the link to that story.

Mikhail

 

I will reply to Dr Bear being that he is the only one actually debating and not throwing out assertions that are limited to the positive condition (dealing within the 'Broken window falasy').


How would you feel if was your daughter that died when taken off insulin by an "MD" in North Carolina who had purchased his degree from a British mill called Metropolitan Collegiate.

funny you should ask Dr. Bear...the same thing happened to my younger brother except this was a dr from a 'non-bogus' school licensed to practice in this state (in the 2nd wealthiest counties of the nation) but my wife (a doctor from Colombia who is currently trying to pass the USMLE) kept after him and the dr to do the opposite. Long story short...if she did not insist on seeing my brother on a particular day she would not have caught him in time to get him out of his insulin coma. A license is nothing

How would you feel if a loved one died in a car accident caused by allegedly faulty brakes, and when it came to trial, the "expert witness" hired by the car company, who assured the jury that the fault was with the driver, had as his only degree an engineering Master's purchased from Columbia State University.

I believe that the trial lawyer has the ability to test the 'expert' to see if they were actually knowledgeable on the subject and if he proved to be as knowledgeable as other it would have no effect. If he did not then the lawyer would have refuted the 'expert' would he have not?

How would you feel if a close relative was being treated at the large and busy sex therapy clinic run by high school dropout Dr. Russo who bought his Ph.D. for $100 from Universal Life University.

I am curious Dr. Bear...how did the very first sexual clinician get his degree when by defition there were no prior sexual clinicians? If this was the case there there could never be any such schooling formed taken with your positivist approach...further, there is a little something called word of mouth...you know...the very first consumer reports, accreditation, etc via spontaneous order.

And on and on and on and on.

I do appreciate your thoughts but this is an exercise in looking past the positive and finding the essence...meaning how can one call something 'bogus' or a 'diploma mill' when at a point in time there were no such things as degrees or diplomas or accredited universities...they must have been started by people without degrees, dipomas, or from unaccredited universities. It is not the degree, diploma, accredited university that gives value to the product but the subjective perceptions of the people...read up on the evolution of money...it was not decreed by anyone.

 

Menger - I see that you are saying that lawyers, employers, etc. should check up on the qualifications of people they are dealing with, but it seems that you agree that when they find these bogus degrees, the employer wiull throw them out. So do you agree that this type of degree (or printing of that piece of paper) is worhtless.

If it is worthless, wouldn't the only function of the degree mill type degree be to commit fraud for those who don't check??

 

Menger writes:

> this was a dr from a 'non-bogus' school licensed to practice
> in this state (in the 2nd wealthiest counties of the nation) but
> my wife (a doctor from Colombia who is currently trying to pass
> the USMLE) kept after him and the dr to do the opposite. Long
> story short...if she did not insist on seeing my brother on a
> particular day she would not have caught him in time to get him
> out of his insulin coma. A license is nothing

I'm delighted that your wife was able to save your brother. But in that last sentence, you committed the "fallacy of converse accident". "A licensed physician knows more medicine than an unlicensed person" is a true generalization, despite your counterexample.

Why do we need licensing? Because a patient on his way to the emergency room does not have the time or resources to verify a physician's credentials. The principle "Caveat emptor" has some applicability, but it cannot be taken to the extreme that you suggest.

> I am curious Dr. Bear...how did the very first sexual clinician
> get his degree when by defition there were no prior sexual
> clinicians?

If you had read Dr Bear's book, you would know how he discusses how Harvard conferred the first Ph.D.s in the USA when there were no Ph.D.s to confer them. Yes, there has to be some bootstrapping. But the knowledge accumulated since the bootstrapping should be passed on; that's what academic standards accomplish. Of course, there's also branching out of specialties, e.g., sex therapy from medicine.

> read up on the evolution of money...it was not decreed by anyone.

You are apparently an ultra-libertarian (or is the word "anarchist"?) who believes people have the right to do anything except have their elected representatives pass laws.

> dealing within the 'Broken window falasy'

OK, here was a fallacy I hadn't heard of (never having studied economics); see http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_window_fallacy. Please note the spelling of "fallacy". Also note that it's only partly a fallacy: if you break the window of a miser, you do stimulate the economy!

 

So why is your wife trying to pass the USMLE? It obviously is worhtless by your example, so by working to pass it, that makes here an accessory to the obvious fraud being perpetrated on the consumer?

Should not she instead work on the outside to show what true skill and ability is? Since that might be classed as ilegal, should nout you who believes it a fraud fight this?

 

Hi menger,

I didn't expect a debate, I just wanted to break some windows.

The fact is, when some one posts a thread (in fourth grade English) claiming they founded an unaccredited college (named for themselves), and that the said college is better than Harvard, it opens the door to some rock throwing.

You either have to be a fraud, or your world view is a little more than confused.

 

So much for hypothetical situations!

 

Actually degree mills are problematic from another standpoint. They really create competetion difficulties in the workplace when employers remain uninformed about the difference between degree mill, state accreditation and RA. For example, I have an 11 year investment in my 3 degrees. I think that this training has provided me with a large amount of skills and information to have in my tool box. However, it is not reasonable for a person to have a degree, or multiple degrees, that was earned in a less than a reputable manner and then compete for the same employment. A person who has completed a degree mill doc or even a state approved doc has not gone through the same rigor that a person who completed an RA doc has. For them to simply list their doc without others having the knowledge that they took less time, less knowledge, and less skills, creates an unfair compettion in the market place. Yes, I know that the "buyer should beware" but too many of the diploma mills sound like comparable degrees, and without exposure, create problems.

 

quite a varied set of responses. Kristie7 you did not read my post very well because if you read it objectively and not emotionally you would not have come up with that response.

Mark..a debater...good job but you are obviously not well versed in libertarian or anarchistic thought but good job looking up "broken window fallacy". Funny how in your post I am not allowed to bring up particulars while in a generalization but you did the same with the broken window yet it is allowed....hmmmm

Mike..I said nothing about the worth or value of such a thing. Reseach the meaning of value or worth and its evolution then look again at what you posted.

Plum...you have a good sense of humor. It is interesting though how you comment upon my spelling errors yet others in the post with similar thoughts as you have also had spelling errors yet you mention nothing about them...and I said absolutely nothing about actually having created MSE. Aparently I did not get through 4th grade grammar but you obviously did not get through 4th grade reading comprehension...

Curious...how is it that this is supposed to be a site for learning and learned people yet there were only 2-3 here who actually are trying to debate or prove a point and not simply dog pile on those with opposing thoughts.

 

Perhaps it is because most people here don't have the time and/or inclination to get into a pointless debate with a pompous troll.

 

Hi menger,

I'm part of the dog pile.

Your comment about the lack of debate among DL students regarding degree mills leads back to my earlier comment: "...your world view is more than a little confused."

This forum is about DISTANCE LEARNING, degree mills are DISTANCE FRAUD.

As far as not comprehending your post, I think it speaks for itself.
It was difficult to determine whether words were typos, spelling/grammer errors, or written as they were meant.
As for not commenting on the other members typos: I make spelling errors, as do most members of this forum. These posts are not formal essays, but often written in the spur of the moment. It serves no interest to point out every typo. But, your post was written on a grammer school level, which contributes to the perceptions of your opinions.

I wasn't throwing rocks at your writting or opinions, but to your faulty sense of logic.

 

Menger - I can't believe you are giving this board direction on the subject, by your posts, you may have a reading comprehension level, but very little common sense.

Since you did not respond to my questions, just saying "read over my response", I guess I will do this same - Read over my response! You made it a point to say you do know how to read, I will ask you to do so.

I do find it very funny that you are grading people on their responses and giving suggestions, what a joke - since your topic is such a joke, I wouldn't take ANY direction from you.

Oh, and Mike - Don't bother researching the meaning of worth, I think everyone with an IQ understands.......

I still think this post is not real, just somebody putting something ridiculous and seeing who responds, but hey, I bit, just for the heck of it.

And to those, who I ususally debate with, we are on the same side of this one - I feel like one of the gang now.

 

Feels kind of good to all be on the same side for once. Menger has been the only one to ever do this.

The only problem is that it's getting boring. I'm going to another thread to look for a fight.

 

Oh Darn,
No Menger College of Economics?
Now I won't get a chance to file a report with the FBI.

 

1. Anonymous troll creates an account and logs on.
2. Troll extols the benefits of degree mills (either a particular school or in general).
3. There is an overwhelming response in the alternative.
4. Troll lashes out at all who disagree (which is usually everyone).

Gee, we've never seen that before!

 

5. All response forn the initiaee are personal slams at the respondes and comments on how they "don't understand the question".

Yep, in the last year plus I've been following this board this is the third iteration.

 

Slight variation on pathetic troll technique, for 2.

2. Troll presents 2 or 3 degree mills and says which one do I pick?


5. Troll accuses everyone of being close minded and rude.

 

Hey guys, I'm really undecided about which of the following schools to buy my Ph.D.--could you give me some insight?

American College, $199
Northwestern International University, Ltd., $495
Lake Charles Bible College, $400