Ed.S. degree for business purposes

All of this completely misses the point that this is a non-industry-specific leadership program offered as an Ed.S. Not an "Educational Leadership" Ed.S. I found it odd that they were offering what is essentially a business program as an Ed.S. credential, whether you think that credential is a degree, certificate, girl scout merit badge, or perfect attendance award - and I wondered if the Ed.S. credential was seen as a second Masters, or something higher, or what if anything in a business context. Since I AM an instructional designer, and will likely continue to work in the area of training, workforce development, software tutorial development, coaching, and management training - it appears to me, from some searching on the internet, that the Ed.S. credential is at least recognized as a "proper" credential for those in my field. Truthfully, the M.Ed. in Adult Education at ACE would be a more logical course for me, and they will allow you to transfer up to 9 credits from a previous Masters - I'm just more interested in Leadership as a practice and found their offering unique.

 

And in the U.S., the federal government has very little control over things like this. Most of the governance is done by the states and private accrediting bodies. When the previous administration got rid of the distinction between regional accreditation and national accreditation, some made the mistake of believing that it would be illegal for schools, licensing boards, and employers to continue to discriminate against national accreditation. Despite the U.S. government saying that national accreditation doesn't exist, state licensing boards and individuals colleges and universities can continue to use the designation.

Even federal employers don't use the Department of Education for guidance on this. Not even the U.S. Department of Education, itself, uses IPEDS award levels when it comes to hiring. They use OPM guidance.

 

EdS: A tool used in the education field to either (a) advance practice or (b) advance salary, depending on your point of view. But what it really is? A substitute for the unofficial "ABD" designation, which is inherently derogatory.

This is caused by the strong tie continuing education and credential have with salary increases in the field of education, often resulting in a quid pro quo. So, what to offer those who already have master's degrees? A failed attempt at a doctorate? Or a successful attempt at this one-of-a-kind award for doing the coursework without doing the degree. ABD? No! We have the EdS instead! You didn't fail to earn a doctorate. You succeeded in getting this...this...thing. Yeah! And yay!

Cynical and jaded? Just for effect. If we accept as a given that school districts will continue to tie salary increases to educational advancement, it probably makes sense to create a positive outcome (EdS) vs. a negative one (ABD). But don't call it a degree. Because it fails on that count, no matter who insists otherwise.

 

First of all, I don't believe that any of these decisions concerning a degree's/qualification's meaning are set in stone nor do I believe that DBA is akin to a protected title. Theoretically, the U.S. authorities could also take the EdS out of the post-Master's void and place it in some meaningful degree category, meaningful in U.S. terms, not Polish ones. They have chosen NOT to do that. The Polish authorities have likewise chosen NOT to place the Polish DBA (we're not talking about the American program here) into a meaningful degree category like Master's or Doctorate. It is possible that this will change. But to show you how something with a Doctor's title can easily function as a Master's-level degree (probably no one sees this as evil), I will only point to this category of degrees in the U.S., which I've already mentioned on this thread:

Doctor’s degree—professional practice A doctor’s degree that is conferred upon completion of a program providing the knowledge and skills for the recognition, credential, or license required for professional practice. The degree is typically awarded after a period of study such that the total time to the degree, including both preprofessional and professional preparation, equals at least 6 full-time-equivalent academic years. Some doctor’s degrees of this type were formerly classified as first-professional degrees. Examples of this type of degree may include the following and others, as designated by the awarding institution: the D.C. or D.C.M. (in chiropractic); D.D.S. or D.M.D. (in dentistry); L.L.B. or J.D. (in law); M.D. (in medicine); O.D. (in optometry); D.O. (in osteopathic medicine); Pharm.D. (in pharmacy); D.P.M., Pod.D., or D.P. (in podiatry); or D.V.M. (in veterinary medicine).

ALL these American degrees are classified as Master's level degrees by Polish authorities - NAWA (confirming completion of second cycle degree studies, not third cycle studies) in Poland. So there goes your answer on how you can have Master's degrees (or postgraduate studies) and receive a Doctor's title of some kind. No one objects to it. Are you objecting to the quality of postgraduate studies or what specifically?

 

No. I'm objecting to the NAME of the post-graduate award, not the quality. DBA stands for DOCTOR of Business Administration. Polish authorities are letting schools confer an award that, in effect says "DOCTOR" and then denying it is what it says - a Doctorate. I'm OK with any country not considering this award a doctorate on their own turf. If it isn't a doctorate in your terms, don't call it DBA - call it "Business Administration Specialist,"Executive Graduate Award in Business Administration, whatever" NOT DBA - NOT DOCTOR

How freakin' hard is THAT?

This'll be the last of it. My head hurts from banging the wall. Do whatever you want and don't tell me about it.

¡No más! (Roberto Durán Samaniego)

 

I won't explain it again, Johann. I think I've explained it to a sufficient extent.

 

Substitution implies that it replaces the ABD status of one who has chosen to pursue a doctorate, but you can still pursue a doctorate and have ABD status, so the Ed.S. isn't a substitute. It's a different degree with a different finish line - a capstone project vs. a dissertation. Just like some M.S. programs require a thesis, while others suffice with a scholarly paper and literature review. I'm not sure how creating a post-graduate degree with a capstone project somehow "fails" as a degree, or why you care so much that the institutions offering these programs call them degrees- the Ed.S. isn't a "threat" to doctorate degrees. Does it not suffice to say that it isn't a doctorate, and that the dissertation is the defining qualifier for a doctorate? Like you say, it was most likely created to encourage post graduate study, but with the needs of the practitioner in mind, without the burden of an original research project. That makes total sense to me - not everyone is wants, needs, or should be pursuing academic research - you need active advanced practitioners in the field as well.

 

Acolyte,

I just want you to know that I don’t have any problem with the EdS. My main objection had to with some of the claims that you have made in defense of this program:

1) You made a very strong claim and said that it was “ludicrous to assert that this isn’t a real degree.” I have shown that the foundations of this claim are shaky from the standpoint of the governing degree-classification bodies in the U.S. to which institutions report to and which are seen as determiners of such things by qualification evaluators across the world. Those authorities see it as certificate at the post-Master’s level.

2) You then said something to which I especially objected to, mainly this: “Regardless of what any of us think - it exists and it is recognized and utilized in the world as a degree.” In fact, I can’t think of a single country evaluator that would place this in the degree category at any level.

All that said, I think that it may be a wonderful program at some institutions. But non-US students should beware of it, as it has no solid foundations that would enable it to be classified as a degree outside the U.S.

 

Maybe it is the phrase, "...in the world" that is the source of misunderstanding here. "In the world" is a colloquialism that is intended to mean "in general use" - I did NOT mean that the degree would be recognized globally (e.g. "in the WORLD") - I meant that in general use, this credential "functions as a degree" and is recognized as a degree in a variety of settings, so to assert that it does not deserve to be called a "degree" when all of the institutions that offer this credential call it a degree and an entire professional field (education) refers to it as a degree... is just playing semantics, and IMO ludicrous - and whether or not a degree evaluator in some other country recognizes a degree or not is not a measure of its validity or utility in another country, nor is it of ANY consequence to anything relating to my original post. That's like saying, "There is a woman in a remote village outside of Kandahar that doesn't find you attractive." Of what consequence is it, if my wife finds me attractive? There are a lot of credentials that don't quite transfer across borders and many have been mentioned here.

 

Fine. That makes sense.

You can argue this point about the lack of relevance when it comes to evaluators in other countries. Here's the main problem though: YOUR country does not see it as a Master's degree or a Doctorate. There is no intermediate post-Master's degree CATEGORY in your country. There is a post-Master's degree but it is classified as part of the post-Master's certificate category. Your claims about the EdS are simply unfounded according to the U.S. data gathering system on the various qualifications that exist in your country, not mine!

 

What I am saying is that this distinction you are making - which is rooted in the obscure minutiae of highly formalized credential evaluation means absolutely NOTHING - not to a hiring manager, not to a colleague in my field, not to the institutions granting the degree, not to the opportunities the degree provides for those in the Education field, not to the other utility it may offer to those in other fields - thereby it is a useless distinction for nearly all practical purposes and applications.

 

I don't disagree with that assessment. My main problem was that your claims about the EdS were over the top.

 

I don't know. The curricula for many Ed.S programs don't look like doctorates without the dissertation. They're often missing the research methods courses. Plus, many Ed.D programs don't have a dissertation; they have a capstone, and capstones exist in Ed.S programs.

 

I'm not sure what claims I was making that were over the top.
All I was claiming was that the Ed.S. is a valid (real) degree because the accredited institutions that award it refer to it as a degree, and it is recognized as a post graduate degree in the broader field of Education with a range of specialties and applications.
I don't think I was claiming anything else.

 

There is no such thing as "ABD status." It is a colloquial term, not a designation.

 

The original question regarded how the EdS would do in business. Well, as someone in business, someone who holds the highest professional certification in HR, and who holds a PhD where I specialized in higher education, my opinion is that it would suck.

 

Not good enough. A degree should have commonly understood inferences. The EdS fails in this regard. The rest of this navel-gazing doesn't change that simple reality.

 

Well, here's an article about the subject called, "Setting The Record Straight: ABD (All But Dissertation) Degree Status" from a Franklin University blog
https://www.franklin.edu/blog/abd-degree

Or another article from Grand Canyon University that mentions "ABD Status" about seven times, and it even defines it as: "All but dissertation is a status that a doctoral learner achieves after completing all of the required coursework and passing the qualifying exams. It means that all the learner has left to complete is the dissertation, hence, “all but dissertation.”

https://www.gcu.edu/blog/doctoral-journey/all-but-dissertation-what-it

There are many, many other instances out there referring to ABD status.

Maybe you should reach out to them and tell them they are using it wrong.

 

That's fine, but that isn't what was asked.

I'm not suggesting getting one is a universally bad idea. I'm saying it fails the more broad concept and construct of a "degree."