CalSouthern Accreditation Question

I stand corrected. The statement of accreditation on the Concord site is really unclear. They should consider something like this, "Concord Law school is regionally accredited through the HLC-NCA and nationally accredited through the DETC." The way they have it worded today is really poor.

 

I hear you loud and clear. However, the quote of the Dean said the ABA is "primarily concerned" with the JD. What I can tell you, with absolute certainty, is that TJSL is only ABA accredited and definitely participates in Title IV for its JSM. I will defer to others, far smarter than me, to figure out the nuances.

 

Yes. I'm sure that that DETC truck driving school just amuses the hell out of your fellow Union doc Lord Levicoff.

 

The ABA itself spells this out very clearly:

Can't get much more explicit than that.

*****

I suspect that there has been a relatively recent change in policy regarding non-JD degrees at standalone law schools. Hastings and Southwestern have both been issuing LLM degrees for years, but only recently have they started pursuing other accreditation (WASC and DETC respectively).

Another possible wrinkle here is that TJSL formerly held RA from WASC, from 1976 until 2006, when they relinquished it voluntarily. So they are clearly accreditable by RA standards. And there would be no possible Title IV issues for any non-JD degrees issued by TJSL before 2006.

 

This is actually not unique; there are a handful of state-approved, non-ABA law schools in a few other jurisdictions, including Massachusetts, Alabama, Tennessee, and Puerto Rico. The Massachusetts example, which is the Massachusetts School of Law, also has state approval in Connecticut. You can find them by searching the list here.

All of the state-approved non-ABA law schools outside California are B&M (not DL), so they don't get much coverage on degreeinfo. They are basically equivalent to CalBar-approved schools in California (which are also B&M).

 

With National Training, the DETC truck and heavy equipment school in Orange Park, FL, they do didactic training by distance instead of in a classroom, but then in-vehicle training in person, with the school's real fleet, at their Florida facility.

They appear to be a credible outfit. There is a (non-DOED or CHEA) form of specialized accreditation that appears to carry weight in tractor trailer driver training, certification by the Professional Truck Driver Institute (PTDI). I don't believe National Training has this, but they wouldn't be the only credible player without it. e.g., some community colleges have truck driver training programs with credit attached that are RA but not PTDI.

 

Sounds pretty definitive. So, in your opinion, if you were going to pursue a graduate degree in law/legal studies online, would you study at a RA school, or an ABA law school whose accreditation technically does not extend to the degree you are seeking?

 

The vast majority of law schools, including many standalone law schools, have both RA and ABA. So is this choice necessary ? Are there any online options with both RA and ABA ?

In the case of TJSL, we appear to have a standalone law school that relies exclusively on ABA for accreditation, yet which offers non-JD degrees which do not appear to be addressed by ABA. My advice would be to contact the school directly for more information. While it appears to me that TJSL's non-JD degrees are technically unaccredited, there may be other relevant factors (such as grandfathering, or pending accreditation applications, or pending partnerships with other schools) that I am not aware of.

 

Yes, but he said he didn't want to know.

 

There is an interesting transcript of a June 9, 2011 meeting of the US Dept. of Education's National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity (NACIQI), in which the issue of non-JD degrees at ABA-only law schools came up.

They seem to be confused about it too. However, the consensus seems to be that ABA only covers the JD, and so any non-JD degrees will not be considered accredited unless the school has some form of institutional accreditation in addition to ABA.

It was indicated that only a relatively small number of law schools -- standalone law schools without institutional accreditation -- would be affected. There were relatively few schools in this category.

 

I know of no online ABA/RA schools, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Given the size and reach of Liberty's DL programs, you'd think they would be great candidates to offer an online JSM, MA Legal Studies, MS in Law and Public Policy, or some similar degree.

On a different note, referring back to our conversation about Liberty on another thread, TJSL has a first-time pass rate of 48% and is in the midst of a class action suit for false advertising, yet I have been able to find nothing about their ABA accreditation being in jeopardy. Given then reality, I think Liberty is on very safe ground.

 

With the ONE exception being the ABA accredited /approved Judge Advocate General’s Legal Center and School which only awards the LL.M. (in Military Law), e.g., currently the ONLY American Bar Association accredited LL.M. degree. :smokin:

 

The absolute pass rate is not meaningful, except in the context of the statewide average. The same pass rate could be OK in State A, and not OK in State B, depending on the average for that state. California (where the vast majority of TJSL students take the bar) is notorious for having a difficult bar exam with low passing rates, so that has to be taken into account.

Having said that, TJSL's pass rates are still uncomfortably low. ABA wants a school's pass rates to be no more than 15 points below the overall average in three of the past five years. TJSL has been below the -15 point level for two of the past five years (-26.44 in the 2012 Guide, -18.21 in the current guide), so they are currently on the bubble.

Liberty is in much better shape; they are currently in negative territory at -8.61, but this is above -15. The Virginia law school that is hurting most is Appalachian, currently at -19.79.

If you want to find something about a California law school losing its ABA approval due to low pass rates, try researching "La Verne", which had its ABA approval revoked in 2011 for that reason. La Verne managed to regain "provisional" ABA approval in 2012, but they still lack "full" approval.

 

I do not know one way or the other.

 

Yes, I know. Both sites appear on DETC's website. Interesting that DETC would accredit this very-much non-DL thingy (the in-person training site).

 

If TJSL did lose ABA approval, it would obviously be a blow, but not necessarily the end of the world. This is because California is one of the few states that does not actually require law schools to be ABA-approved; the California Bar has its own approval program. A CalBar-approved JD degree has limited to no value outside of California, but since most TJSL students plan to practice in-state, that might not necessarily be a critical flaw.

So in the worst case, TJSL could continue to operate as a state-approved law school, while working to get its ABA approval back (at least provisionally). In fact, this is exactly what La Verne did.

The loss of ABA approval could be much more serious for a school like Appalachian. Most states (probably including Virginia) do not recognize law schools unless they have ABA approval.

 

I agree. However, from what I have read, and I am no expert on the matter, non-ABA schools are required to have their students sit for the Baby Bar at the end of the first year of study. That would be a blow to many students. From what I have read, and it is largely anecdotal, the Baby Bar is extraordinarily difficult. Many believe, including some lawyers, that first year students in ABA programs would not do well if they were required to take it.

 

No, that's not quite correct.

California has three levels of law school accreditation:

- ABA (nationally) approved: bar-qualifying in all states, no baby bar
- CalBar (state) approved: bar-qualifying in California, no baby bar
- "unaccredited": bar-qualifying in California, but must pass baby bar

If a school qualifies for CalBar approval -- which La Verne did, and which TJSL could also do -- then their students are exempt from the baby bar.

It's only the "unaccredited" schools, with neither national nor state bar approval, that face the baby bar requirement. This includes all California DL law schools, even if they are DETC or RA.

Actually, ABA students can be required to take the baby bar under certain circumstances. Every year, some ABA students do take it, and they generally don't have impressive pass rates. As a rule, however, only the weakest ABA students find themselves in this situation. For example, if a student flunked out of an ABA school and then wanted to re-enroll, then the school might require that student to take and pass the baby bar as a condition of re-enrolllment. So the ABA students who take the baby bar aren't representative; they are generally the weakest by ABA standards.

 

CalSouthern now has WASC accreditation and still has their Juris Doctor program.