The disadvantages of an elite education

I'm a later arrival in this thread. I read a few sentences of the original linked article and decided that the authur was a mutant. Probably not a bad person but c'mon, a guy is standing in your kitchen trying to fix you sink and you can't say "Hey, how about them Sox?" Definitely a mutant and YOU DEFINITELY CAN'T BLAME THIS ON YOUR SCHOOL! No, it's not the school, it's the guy, he's a mutant.

Aside from that, I just want to say that if you are lucky enough to live near major universities (like Harvard, Brown, Yale, or any of the other well known academic centers) you will meet people who have graduated from those schools who are doing things like driving cabs, running fishing boats, desperately running little start-ups, taking over the family business, etc. You name it. This is true in Boston, LA, Chicago, everywhere. The degree means virtually nothing. The degree may get you an interview, it may even get you a job. After that it's up to you.

 

Hi all -

I think I've said this before in other similar threads. If it's actually page one of this one I apologize.

Basing the merit of Ivy education on CEO or C level positions is flawed or at least requires a different approach than one to one based on percentages. Here's why.

- There are more graduates of state schools then there are Ivy schools in theory based on the number of people granted admission to state schools vs. Ivies.

If 1% to 5% of the college population gets to go to an Ivy School and graduate.
If a pre-requisite for a C level position is a college education.
If 10 percent of all C level positions are filled with Ivy graduates

At the surface there looks to be a clear indication that Ivy educated grads are preferred on some level as there are likely fewer C level positions than there are graduates of Ivy schools. If another 50% of college grads come from state schools and the remaining 90% of C level positions are filled with them, again with fewer C level positions than state grads, that doesn't necessarily say very much.

Of course, I'm making up numbers for the sake of this post to make a point, but the journalists writing articles that make the 10% point over and over again are simply taking advantage of people's social inclination to mediocrity. It's very easy to make a socially acceptable point when it's unlikely that people will question it.

Last, to Kizmet's point: I'm sure that the data collection stops once the person became C-level. Getting the job doesn't mean you're good at it. True for Ivies and State School grads.

IT

 

AUTigre
Essentially, someone graduating from Harvard and someone graduating from State U. would have similar incomes, on average, after 10 years.

Abner

That sounds about right to me. In today's world, I would say it would probably be more like seven to eight years. This just my opinion of course, based on my personal observations.

Abner

 

So if we wait even longer, for 15 years, all the salary differences should be long gone -- right ?

The median annual income for Harvard grads after 15 years in the workplace is $121,000. It's a little bit higher than that for Princeton and Dartmouth grads. And since this is the median, half of them (by definition) are earning even more.

Does this really seem like the norm for 35-40 year old graduates of your local State U ?

 

The numbers you are siting include people with advanced degrees that did their bachelors at an Ivy. Also, those numbers are often skewed because the people reporting are the ones who have typically achieved the most success. It's like the average salary ratings that b-schools put out each year, those numbers are well off the mark because the kids landing jobs that are only paying $50k aren't responding to the survey requests from Career Services. Also, most Ivy grads remain in the Northeast or relocate to the West coast where cost of living is exponentially higher. I don't put too much stock into numbers like that.

 

Not in this case. Payscale.com has a "Bachelor's Only" policy that excludes grads with advanced degrees (even if, as with Ivies, this excludes most alumni).

But such skewing would affect any school. Yet most State U salaries still come out lower.

But that factor affects any West Coast or Northeast State school. Yet salaries for most University of California or UMass schools (etc.) still come out lower.

Payscale.com is a pretty respected source for this kind of data. Can you suggest a better one ?

 

All good points. I'll be honest, I've got no come back other than to site a study I mentioned previously (which I have been unable to locate). I could see ivy alums out earning grads from state schools in Mass, but I would think that UC Berkley and UCLA grads would be very close if not on par. Also, the study I referenced included school such as Duke, Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Emory, etc. Grads from those schools would likely drive average earnings for the non-Ivy data set up. Just my thoughts.

 

So in order to do a true analysis of salaries.

1. Take two schools of varying perceived value (Harvard, UMass)
2. Choose a graduating class from 2 years ago, and another from 10 years ago.
3. Pop size of 30 or more from both in terms of respondents.
4. Take a list of the job fairs and recruiting companies at those fairs for those two graduating classes. Find the similar firms and eliminate the firms that do not appear on both lists.*

5. Find the population of candidates that got jobs from each class at the same firms.
6. Evaluate pay data based on the firm being a control, not the school.

I think what you'll find is that it's not the value of the education that matters, it's the value of the alumni community and the school's perceived quality as a result of that alumni comunity and other social factors. Students at Harvard that are making on average X more than the students who graduated UMass are very likely getting jobs and opportunities that UMass grads aren't by virtue of recruitment.

This isn't an education or education quality topic. It's a social one, and the people who are quantifying the education of an elite school by the cost of the tuition, aren't likely the people who would be getting the value of the school to begin with.

Best,
ITJD

 

[Charlie_Sheen]Winning![\Charlie_Sheen]

This thread is now over with this quote above about the social and alumni communities.

 

Actually, there is a third factor, beyond the value of education (during the college years) and the value of the alumni community (after the college years). Those factors are real, but it starts even earlier than that (before the college years).

By any measure of academic performance -- grades, class rank, test scores -- the high school students who decide to enroll at Harvard far outperform (on average) the high school students who choose UMass.

Example: the middle 50% ACT scores for UMass freshman are 23 - 28 (this means that 25% have a score below 23, 50% are between 23 and 28, and 25% are above 28). So a score of 28 is much better than average at UMass. A score of 29 or 30 would be fantastic.

The middle 50% ACT scores for Harvard freshmen are 31 - 34. So a score of 29 or 30 would put you in the top 10 to 20% of students at UMass -- but it would also put you in the bottom 10 to 20% of students at Harvard.

Academic performance in high school isn't everything. But in general, the good students in high school will probably earn more later in life than the bad ones. And the very best students in high school probably have the best chances overall. UMass is taking the good high school students, Harvard is taking the very best students.

 

double post, sorry

 

Well, that's pretty much what the payscale.com data indicate.

The annual mid-career salary range for alumnni of Ivy League schools, according to this site, is $ 99,700 to $ 123,000 (depending on the school).

The corresponding value for Berkeley grads is within the Ivy range, at $ 109,000.
The corresponding value for UCLA grads is slightly below the Ivy range, at $ 91,600.
But realistically, Berkeley and UCLA are not typical state universities.

The corresponding value for UMass-Amherst is significantly lower, at $ 78,900.
The corresponding value for Framingham State is $ 63,000.

Again, payscale.com agrees.

Duke at $ 117,000 and Vandy at $104,000, are within the Ivy range
WUSTL at $ 91,400 and Emory at $ 90,000 are slightly below

But realistically, these are not typical of non-Ivy private schools.

 

Right. But you factor enough of schools similar to those listed above (I'm talking UVA, UNC-CH, U. of Michigan, Univ of Texas, Rice, etc. etc.) and it will shift the average closer to the Ivy range. I really wish I could find that study because I would like to see what schools were compared against the Ivies.

 

Those are fine, top-tier non-Ivy schools, which undoubtedly raise the average.

Unfortunately, they are greatly outnumbered by the second-, third-, and fourth-tier non-Ivy schools, which bring the average back down again.

If you want to highlight Berkeley and UCLA, for example, that's fine. But the state universities of California include 7 lower-ranked UC schools and 23 lower-ranked CSU schools as well.

 

You guys are all over the place with this article. I rather enjoyed it. I viewed it as a Ivy league ring-knocker giving us a glimpse at his (or their) own issues with elite education.

Funny how we all have our own issues. He is very correct on how elite-edu folks expect certain things given to them. Or to be treated in a certain fashion. Happens even in the military. Some of the very senior officers, have upper-crust degrees and look down upon us enlisted folks with none or less desirable degrees. Almost like we have no education at all. You get the same response he said in the article, "Oh, a degree from where again?..."

I'll stop there, because I will start an emotional rant... Cheers! :usaribbon:

 

Oh, almost forgot... A couple years back, I had to do research on The Unabomber (ole Ted K). Elite-edu, although debatable, overwhelmingly led to his craziness. Thumbs up for Harvard!!

 

I have to say that after meeting Randell in person, I do value his opinion. He is right in this regard.