Report from the DETC convention

Actually, that's what happened. Admissions officials were asked to rate various forms of approval and accreditation in terms of acceptability, with 6 being absolutely acceptable to 0 (zero) being not at all acceptable.

Paul's interpretation of that part of the survey is incorrect. (Not surprising, since the data have not been published.) The mean score for "National Accreditation" was slightly less than half of "Regional Accreditation, Some Residency." But 80% of admissions officials responding indicated something above zero. There indeed was a continuum.

The survey showed that there is GAAP, then everything else. Within various forms of GAAP recognition, only DETC was way below ther others--significantly below foreign schools meeting GAAP. Non-GAAP, including state approval and unrecognized accreditation, were dismal. Way, way below even DETC's score.

Rich Douglas, who didn't conduct the study, but analyzed the data.

 

Oh no! I've been outed. Actually, I used both PaulC and pcovers on aed for the last 5 plus years. A regular poster there and an obvious apologist for the DETC. Not necessarily for any and all DETC accredited schools, though.

 

It actually appears to be a very interesting study. Thanks for the further information.

 

The results of the survey of registrars will be presented by yours truly at AACRAO, the national conference of registrars and admissions officers, in Seattle, in two weeks. The fact that they have moved my room from a 20-person to a 50 to a 100 suggests that there may be interest there.

I'll ask Ten Speed Press to post my paper on their www.degree.net site -- but I've got to finish writing it first, so if you'll excuse me . . .

John Bear

 

Every employer that I've ever worked for has had a tuition reimbursement program that read "regionally accredited university" in it. One can safely assume that if they won't pay for it then they aren't going to accept it for employment decisions either.

I don't consider your argument about individuals that slipped through the cracks at certain companies to be useful. There's no doubt that there are many lazy HR people that don't bother to verify every resume that crosses their desk. However, it is just a matter of time before that "time bomb" explodes. If not at initial hire then when it comes time for a competitive promotion.

My comments about graduate schools not accepting DETC are based upon two inquiries that I made regarding programs that I was interested in.

I'm personally not concerned with the statistical significance of my "research." I don't feel a need to prove every point that I make with a research study. If the degree won't allow me to attain my goals or attend the program of my choice then I can safely consider it useless.

If your DETC degree works for you then that's fine with me.

 

John:

If by chance your paper is not posted by Ten Speed Press, would you consider placing it on this forum. I for one am very interested in reading the results of the survey.

Thank you, sir, for your ongoing contribution to the field of distance learning.

Russell

 

I don't doubt for a second that what Paul says is true. However, I believe the real problem is that not accepting a DETC accredited degree would generally mean that the interview would never even happen. Those are not the kind of issues that I suspect would ever be discussed in an interview unless the resume screening process breaks down.

 

I agree with Bill here. And let's keep in mind that Paul's phrase "almost 50% of RA schools will accept a DETC degree" could also be stated as "A majority of RA schools will not accept a DETC degree."

WIth employers, it's obviously a lot murkier. As someone that has done a lot of hiring and resume reviewing, I have to say that while I wouldn't reject a graduate of a DETC school outright, I would probably give more scrutiny to the resume than I would with an RA school.

Fair? Probably not. Does it happen? Most certainly. And other HR people may arbitrarily eliminate people from unknown or small RA schools as well... the process of hiring is, by nature, discriminatory in that the HR or hiring manager eventually chooses *some* criteria that causes her or him to extend an offer... my whole take on DETC-accredited schools is not "They suck and are horrible" but "In many eyes, they are viewed as second-rate". Even if 2 doors out of 100 are closed to DETC grads, *why* would anyone make the conscious decision to close those doors when they could make a different choice that would keep those (and other) doors open?


Personally, I used to keep Bears' 12th on my desk whenever a question arose about a school listed in a resume. I saw a lot of frauds. Quite a few resumes ended up in the round file because of that. Some of them were very qualified people who, but for their bogus degree, would have been interviewed. I don't want someone working for me who is trying to lie to me before s/he's in the door.

Now DETC does not represent an ethical breach on a resume, as does a Hamilton or Columbia State... but there is every reason to keep as many doors open as possible, which is why (for me, at least) DETC-accredited schools would very rarely be an option.

 

I don't think I mentioned anything about individuals slipping through teh cracks. I understadn that happens, but that is not what I was talking about.

My point was that it is a regular event that individuals post here with very matter of fact statements regarding companies or government agencies that they are certain do not accept anything other than RA. I was countering that by giving specific examples of where what someone was so certain about "policy" was not policy at all. I was not giving anecdotal examples of individuals "falling through the cracks".

 

I recently took a look at 9 different tuition reimbursement policies, 3 from private companies, 3 from civic governments, and 3 from universities. There was little agreement regarding accreditation. Some required it, but didn't define it. Others didn't mention it at all. None distinctly stated "regional accreditation."

I quite agree with, "If the degree won't allow me to attain my goals or attend the program of my choice then I can safely consider it useless." Funny how the opposite of this can be so offensive to some people posting here; that a degree from a school they don't like can be useful to its holder. That doesn't make the school good overall, but perhaps very valuable to its graduates. Just as a school can be very good, but its programs useless to some people.

Rich Douglas, who delights in the anguish expressed over "less-than-wonderful" schools while those same schools laugh all the way to the bank.

 

Rich, there are lots of folks that laugh all the way to the bank, but that doesn't make them (or their schemes) right or good or proper.

In our small town newspaper there is a story or two every month about someone who has been bilked out of their life savings by some get rich scheme operator. I will grant that it takes a little bit of gullibility and a lot of greed for the schemes to work.

However, that doesn't make it right. I put diploma mills in the same category - money makers or not.

Bill Hurd

 

I agree.

Rich Douglas

 

It seems that the DETC vrs. RA discussion pops up every so often. Often the trigger tends to be a statement that either claims or infers that RA is a "higher" rung of accreditation than DETC.

Being pragmatic, I would offer the following question:

All other things being equal, would you rather your degree/school is accredited by (a)RA or (b)DETC?

Barry Foster

 

This reduces the RA versus DETC debate to its most hypothetical. If you mean all other things, including institutional quality and acceptance in academia or industry, then the contrarian in me would choose DETC. This is because taken as a group, the RA schools act in ways which sometimes make them appear at best as a guild and at worst as an oligarchy.

My impression of this, especially the latter, occurs when an RA institution (for example Thomas Edison) summarily rejects credit from an otherwise similarly CHEA- and DoEd-recognized accredited school. Registrars are of course free to accept or decline transfer credit from any other school, RA or not. However, schools have moved this from a consumer-beneficial matter of academic discernment into a market-damaging behavior of categorical discrimination.

If a registrar is reviewing a student's academic record and must make a decision on whether or not to assign credit for a course already taken at a school of CHEA- and DoEd-recognized accreditation, college algebra for example, that determination should be made upon the merits of the course and the student's grade with respect to the registrar's institutional standards. If the course equivalently covers and tests what would have been taught and tested at that institution, then a wrong is committed if the registrar then declines credit because of what appears essentially a political reason.

Now, without evidence, I believe that many RA schools teach with more quanity or quality per course than DETC schools, i.e., calculus at Caltech is an order of magnitude more difficult than calculus at Grantham School of Electronics. I also believe there is plenty of overlap in course content and quality between institutions of schools of the two lines of accreditation, and any reason for automatic prohibition of transfer from DETC to RA cannot be based in fact.

I wonder if there should be a requirement made by the DoEd that member institutions of accrediting agencies it approves must not engage in constructive collusion by not recognising transfer credit or degrees from other DoEd-recognized (non-RA) accrediting bodies on any other case-by-case basis than content and quality of course or degree program.

Now, back to the question: As things stand today where all things are not equal, I have enough academic challenges (many caused by my own relative stupidity) facing me without choosing to engage institutional reluctance over a matter of accreditation. My Associate degree program is regionally accredited and if I were intent upon teaching or researching at a university I would choose an RA program.

Mark A. Sykes

 

The question simply removes all other variants. Of course, there is never a time where everything else equal.

It's a simple question asking for personal preference - which demonstrates which is more desireable.

The question is similar to asking for a person's preference - an ounce of gold verses an ounce of iron. Pretty pragmatic.

 

When comparing RA and DETC schools, are they both adopting the new e-education technologies as readily? Are any particular schools going beyond the video/realvideo technologies?

Who is taking advantage of new tech like Interactive multimedia computer based training (CBT)?

I noticed ACCIS' has taken the initiative to go beyond the classic video, tapes approach.
http://www.accis.edu/catalogue/expect1.html

Harvard and Michigan state University have real videos showing the instructor on the left side of your screen. Your screen is split so that the right side shows anything he writes on the board or any handouts he refers to. When I first saw that, I was pretty impressed. However, my continued quest for a good DL program turned up other internet tools that are cropping up. I guess these would be examples of "e-training/web-training/computerbased training materials.

Here's a neat example from Riverdeep interactive learning:
http://www.riverdeep.net/math/destination_math/math_dm_page.html#

That kind of material is perfect for reviewing courses you have already learned. The visual nature of the training aid is refreshing to having to flip through a drab book that sounds like Sir Issact Newton himself wrote.

Back when I was in school in 1984, our fancy equipment usually was an overhead projector. The image was distorted and the edges were blurry. It's good to see real video classes at some universities. Now we can clearly see what the instructor is refering to on screen.

However, is there a school that is going beyond the real video route? A computer is a great visual medium as the Riverdeep demo shows.

ACCIS comes to mind here. Now looking at their program, is ACCIS leading in Computer Based Training?From ACCIS' site:

" Interactive multimedia computer based training (CBT) developed by Smartforce — the world's leading producer of CBT — is included on CD-ROM or in the online course labs for supplemental instruction."

I don't see this initiative in RA accredited schools.

 

There are some interesting delivery technologies being developed by the folks at Cenquest.com.

They are essentially a "middleman" for course delivery between a bunch of schools and the consumer... they offer some useful (mostly business and IT-realted) courses in an unusual compressed format, with extensive online interaction and instruction, but I don't think they have any degrees yet.

I have no connection with them, other than knowing someone who works there.

 

Do you have their web page address? Cenquest.com doesn't display a page.

Interactive technologies have the potential to immerse the student beyond the traditional means availabe in the past. If a DETC or RA school can show that it is at the forefront of this exciting field, that will definately make an impression on me.

My wife is taking a for credit distance course at the University of Montreal. It only cost her 200$ Canadian,(Canadian schools are super cheap compared to US schools). She got a the course materials plus a video. She's is in the nursing field.

Being interested in the computer science field, I'm looking for something a bit more exciting than a video. I want immersion, amd interaction with my program.

 

Do you have their web page address? Cenquest.com doesn't display a page.

Interactive technologies have the potential to immerse the student beyond the traditional means availabe in the past. If a DETC or RA school can show that it is at the forefront of this exciting field, that will definately make an impression on me.

My wife is taking a for credit distance course at the University of Montreal. It only cost her 200$ Canadian,(Canadian schools are super cheap compared to US schools). She got the course materials plus a video. She's is in the nursing field.

Being interested in the computer science field, I'm looking for something a bit more exciting than a video. I want immersion, and interaction with my program.

Again from ACCIS' site:

"ACCIS' integration of computer based training (CBT) allows you to learn using the latest in video- and graphic-enhanced learning technology without compromising the integrity and level of your academic program. CBT is available for students in both download and live play formats and can be accessed through individual online course labs."

I'm not pushing ACCIS but I would like to know if there are any other accredited schools that are using up to date delivery techniques.