ROLL CALL: Military students post here!

6074- Cryogenic Equipment Operator

I was with MALS-14, and now Im at NAMTRAMARUNIT (was VMAT 203 FREST) as a Cryo instructor. Both degrees are Liberal Studies. That was the quickest way for me to complete them.

 

Hi. I'm a staff sergeant in the U.S. Army, MOS 93P. I am currently assigned as Airfield NCOIC at a small airfield in Wonju, South Korea. I recently returned to active duty Jan 01) after an 11-year hiatus during which time I continued to serve in the Delaware National Guard and in the Army Reserves. I also hold a few other MOS' - 31F, 31C and 71L. I am and ex drill sergeant as well. My records will be reviewed for promotional consideration to SFC this year.

I currently hold a B.S. in Human Resource Management from Wilmington College. I've completed courses in several graduate programs (Instructional Systems - Penn State); (Special Education-Wilmington College); (Psychology - Capella University); but I have yet to obtain a Masters Degree. I was in my second year of law school at Widener when I decided to return to active duty. I have 12 years prior service so I figured I'd try to get back in and do the other 8 before I got too old to pass the physical.

Capella was my first experience with distance education.

To be totally honest, I am interested in so many areas that I am finding it extremely difficult to decide what graduate degree to pursue. My major interests are English Literature, Writing, Journalism, Psychology, Education, Theology, Administration & Management, Law, and the Behavioral Sciences. It's beginning to get very difficult writing goal statements.

I am thoroughly enjoying reading the posts in this forum and find the ones by Rich Douglas especially intellectually stimulating although somewhat intimidating.

I welcome any feedback, information and/or advice relating to this post.

 

For that, I deeply apologize. I am at fault when I allow confidence to come off as arrogance. I appreciate the mild way you put this criticism. It is both true and easy to take.

Good luck on the promotion and in Korea. I spent a year at Osan AB as the squadron section commander for the aircraft maintenance squadron. It taught me a lot.

 

No apologies necessary and thank you.

 

Always good to hear from fellow SSGs. I knew a SSG at Ft Drum who had a 15 year break in service before choosing to come back in. He said he was already too old, but just couldn't get it out of his blood...

I'm about 5 years away from retirement myself. Realizing that is what made me decide to get on my horse and finish my BS (Individualized Studies; Charter Oak State College; Nov, 2002) and persue my Masters (MBA, TUI, just started in March).

Good luck on getting promoted to SFC. I was selected last year (sequence number 56 for MOS 98G. I think they have promoted through 7 so far, but I am patient, and thrilled to have been selected.)

Will you be in the primary or secondary zone this year? Promotions are hard to come by in the secondary zone, though 5 93P (out of 47 eligable) in the secondary zone made it last year. Generally speaking, I think having a degree, DS time, and a few other MOSs will help your promotion chances. You can click here to see an analysis of how years of civilian college attendance effected Sr NCO promotion results last year. It doesn't appear as though it was a major factor overall, but for MOS 93P, all 8 (out of 56 eligible) selected for promotion in the primary zone had at least 1 year of college. As you know, the board members consider many factors when making their selections.

I understand your dilema in choosing the right degree goal. There is a lot to choose from. Good luck.

Tracy Gies <><
SSG(P), 98G3HC8QB

 

Thank you Tracy. I see by your "H" identifier that you have completed ITC as well.

98G is Intelligence Analyst isn't it? I once attended Interrogator school in Fort Huachuca and had orders for the language institute in Monterey but I didn't complete the course, choosing instead to remain in my Signal MOS.

I am in the primary zone this year. When I returned to active duty, I was allowed to maintain my grade of E6; and my DOR, formerly July 1986, was adjusted to January 1998. I was in the primary zone last year but my PSB did not send my records up claiming that I had nothing in them to be reviewed. They - amazingly - did not know that they had to include my prior service records. I ended up doing EVERYTHING...from locating my "lost" prior service records to getting everything submitted into my fiche. I had to enlist the aid of the IG to finally get everything accomplished.

Yes, I read the analysis of senior promotions last year and the analysis of promotions for my field. Actually, I was surprised to see that promotions are based on so many factors including age, race and gender.

I am really enjoying being back, and I am in the process of submitting my packet for recruiting duty. Having been active duty for 12 years, then a civilian for 11 years and then back to being a soldier, I feel that I have a unique perspective to bring to the table. I've heard horrible things about recruiting duty but I have always been one to find out things for myself.

 

That has always been interesting. You occasionally get Senior NCO's and some officers that talk in negative terms about educated enlisted people. In other words it sometimes gets looked at as if you were not really concentrating on the business of soldiering but on civilian education. I always had positive experiences but still heard and read some negative things. Of course many boards are focussing on assignments & military schools.

I did once have a Chaplain Assistant SGM who said that he liked educated soldiers. He said an Associates degree teaches you to answer multiple choice questions and you learn that kind of decision making, where a B.A. was more about analysis, a skill he highly valued in leadership.

North

 

Until the eArmy initiative, I was firmly convinced the military was only payong lip service to educating the troops. The cutbacks in tuition assistance benefits during the 1990's was just such an example. They use the GI Bill to entice enlistments, but that is primarily focused on post-service education. (It can be used while on active duty, though.)

In the mid-1970's, the Air Force created the Community College of the Air Force, designed to mix credit for military training with civilian college credit to award A.A.S. degrees related to one's Air Force Specialty (akin to Navy Rating and Army MOS). Throughout my entire career I maintained that if the Air Force was really serious about educating the troops, it would extend that concept to bachelor's degrees. (College of the Air Force?) But that would create a whole pool of upwardly mobile enlisted men and women clamoring to become officers. I remain convinced that the Air Force tolerates enlisted personnel becomming officers, but doesn't seek it out. (Sort of filling the gaps that don't get filled by the Academy and AFROTC.) I don't think the personnel folks want a bunch of educated, talented, and experienced enlisted people knocking down the doors to become officers. (Or worse, to take their degrees and leave for the private sector.)

This is just one guy's opinion, but it comes from having served as an NCO and as an officer (retiring as the latter), and having worked as an Education Specialist, Training Specialist, and Education and Training Officer in the Air Force.

 

Close. I am an Electronic Warfare/Signal Intelligence Voice Interceptor (Spanish). DLI Monterey was awesome. (For you lurkers out there who have been to DLI since 1991, you might qualify for an AA degree based upon your language training. Plans to award the degree to those who qualify have already been approved. See this website for details.)

I know that they are clamoring for recruiters. The 98G branch manager has been recommending that Spanish Gs do something like that since we just don't have as many missions as we used to. I would like to try it myself, except that my family size is too big (they cap eligability at 2 or 3 kids, since the job is so demanding, I suppose.) Comparatively speaking, I don't believe that recruiting would be that much more demanding than being a drill sergeant, which you have already done. The hours are probably about the same and both jobs put you under a microscope. Recruiting might also give you valuable experience that you can use after retirement (i.e. HR departments may find those people skills extremely useful.)

Tracy<><

 

The eArmyu Mission Statement (according to this source):

1) Increase retention by allowing soldiers to earn credits, degrees and certificates at low or no cost to them while they serve on active duty.

2) Develop educated, technology-savvy soldiers who will succeed in the missions and on the battlefields of the 21st century.

During my 15 years in the Army, I have noted that most soldiers say they are getting out to go to college. The Army may have noted the same trend, and determined that if they made it easier and cheaper to get a college degree while soldiers are still in the Army, more may stay in. In some ways, it probably makes even more sense now to stay in if you want college, than it does to get out.

Additionally, I don't have data to back any of this up, but *in general* college-educated soldiers may be better at problem solving, applying leadership skills, and defeating battlefield stress than non-college-educated soldiers. That is just my opinion, and I don't know if those are things that the Army considered when it developed the program.

Tracy<><

 

I think the eArmy intiative is superb, and it will be an excellent retention tool. (Unless all those newly minted graduates decide to test out their degrees on the street!) I wish the Air Force had come up with it, or at least would adopt it.

 

What exactly is EArmy, Rich? Is it similar to the SOCNAV/MAR agreements for sailors and marines? They elect a home school (usually a local college at their home of record or at base) and what ever SOC college they goto (alot of them) they can transfer all their credits to their degree program at home.

Regards,

Bill

 

I have met officers who look down their nose at officers with prior enlisted background. One Capt. said of another "Oh well, what do you expect he was former enslited". Another officer referred to Warrant Officers as "E-5's with O'Club memerships". For those without military background "O'Club is Officers club".

North

 

I am a proud member of the warrant officer corps. I was enlisted for almost seven years, attained the rank of Staff Sergeant (E-6) before attending WOCS and flight school. I have been a warrant officer for almost seven years, also. I am not just a highly paid E-5, I am a leader and technical expert.

RE: Officers who think less of prior enlisted soldiers...consider the source of their remarks. Most prior enlisted have a better understanding of how the service works, how to get the job done at a fundamental level, and how to motivate soldiers. They understand what being enlisted is all about because they've been there! They may become more effective leaders due to this experience.

The officers without enlisted experience seem to separate themselves (almost snobbishly) and lose credibility by doing so. A direct order is a direct order, but HOW you motivate a soldier makes a big difference. Think about it - would you rather have a soldier who wants to work for you or one that has to work for you?

To those officers who think they are superior to those of lessor rank: many of the people you out rank are better educated than you are! They are simply doing what makes them happy. You may get paid more, but chances are they are more content with their lives (less stress, less social obligations, less political turmoil, more free time...).

Just an opinion...

 

I was not particularly happy with those comments either. The reality is that even within the officer ranks of those who do not have prior enlisted background there is a division between academy graduates (ring knockers) and the ROTC graduates.

One of those officers I mentioned had a theory of labor/mgt division. As an E-4 I inquired why he (a CAPT.) could not empty his own garabge can when I had been working in another office during the week and would need to make a special trip to emtpy his lunch out of the can. I pointed to an E-8 who did this and even buffed the floor in the S-3 office. The CAPT.'s response was that this was an enlisted man's job and that it was the E-8's job to buff officer's floor and empty their garbages.

North

 

Oh, don't get me started.....!

That 0-3 (I'd never call him sir or Captain) is either an idiot or has some extremely big ones, probably the former. He's obviously clueless about personnel employment.

Oh, how I would love to help this 0-3 adjust! I would try my damnest to make his stupidity as painful as possible. First of all, he would have a pile of trash a mile high! Secondly, I would tell him to kiss my ass with all due respect, of course. If he chose to make an issue of it I'd let him so the full idiocy of his "style" would be made visible to all. Besides, the UCMJ somewhat handcuffs 0-3s and below when dealing with SNCOs, especially E-8s and E-9s. And in my unit at least, you'd better have a smoking gun AND a dead body to even think about disciplinary actions on a SNCO!

I firmly believe any decent commander would take issue with the 0-3's labor/management division theory. I generally have faith in my officers and would bet he'd soon find himself quite isolated by his peers. It's been a while since I've seen a CGO who was so confused but it's easily dealt with if the SNCO has EARNED his position of authority/responsibility and is "on line" with the Chief and/or commander! Apparently your "0-3" is totally unaware of the E-8's ability to discretely or openly sabotage his every move.

Rant over.

 

"That 0-3 (I'd never call him sir or Captain) is either an idiot or has some extremely big ones, probably the former. He's obviously clueless about personnel employment. "

This is unfortunate. I worked for a number of officers I had absolutely no use for. Still, it was not my prerogative to chose which I would address with their grade or as "Sir/Ma'am." This is disloyal. It is the duty of every subordinate (and we are/were all subordinate to someone) to actively follow our leaders. "Active followership" means to engage the superior, providing your input, guidance, and suggestions. However, once heard, it is your responsibility to carry out his/her orders with the same enthusiasm as if they were your own.

If your subordinates see you overtly disrespect a superior officer, how can you expect them to obey the orders
you give that they might not like or agree with? I had 900 people under my last command; I never believed for a minute that every one of them liked or even respected me. But to allow any of them to undermine my authority would hurt the effectiveness of the entire unit. And my superiors? Their grade and authority were simply not mine to take away.

As for the OTS/ROTC/Academy schism, it is real, but it is not as strong in the Air Force as it is in the other services, IMHO. Our schism is between pilots and everyone else. I was promoted to Staff Sergeant at 21, commissioned through OTS at 24, taught AFROTC at 28, and retired at 36. I have a little bit of experience in this area.

 

Rich, I'm fully aware of the doctrine you presented. The 0-3 would still lose or least not win. His philosophy is flawed and harmful to the mission and morale. If he feels that way about enlisted people, he'd be better off keeping his opinions to himself and simply never take the trash out instead of making it some kind of rank issue. Hey, I'll dump anyone's trash as a courtesy and out necessity...right up to the point that the recipient of my help takes the attitude that such details are beneath them.

However, I do agree that perhaps it would be best to subvert this a$$hole discreetly.... Prolly more fun, too!

 

One of those officers I mentioned had a theory of labor/mgt division. As an E-4 I inquired why he (a CAPT.) could not empty his own garabge can when I had been working in another office during the week and would need to make a special trip to emtpy his lunch out of the can. I pointed to an E-8 who did this and even buffed the floor in the S-3 office. The CAPT.'s response was that this was an enlisted man's job and that it was the E-8's job to buff officer's floor and empty their garbages.

North [/B]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B]I cannot in my wildest imagination - and it can get wild - imagine this ever happening. No self-repecting SNCO would allow it. [/B]


Oh, don't get me started.....!

That 0-3 (I'd never call him sir or Captain) is either an idiot or has some extremely big ones, probably the former. He's obviously clueless about personnel employment.

Oh, how I would love to help this 0-3 adjust! I would try my damnest to make his stupidity as painful as possible. First of all, he would have a pile of trash a mile high! Secondly, I would tell him to kiss my ass with all due respect, of course. If he chose to make an issue of it I'd let him so the full idiocy of his "style" would be made visible to all. Besides, the UCMJ somewhat handcuffs 0-3s and below when dealing with SNCOs, especially E-8s and E-9s. And in my unit at least, you'd better have a smoking gun AND a dead body to even think about disciplinary actions on a SNCO!

I firmly believe any decent commander would take issue with the 0-3's labor/management division theory. I generally have faith in my officers and would bet he'd soon find himself quite isolated by his peers. It's been a while since I've seen a CGO who was so confused but it's easily dealt with if the SNCO has EARNED his position of authority/responsibility and is "on line" with the Chief and/or commander! Apparently your "0-3" is totally unaware of the E-8's ability to discretely or openly sabotage his every move.

Rant over.

HOOAH!! HOOAH!!

 

With the outstanding work being performed by the military in a number of situations (like Bosnia, Southern Asia, Persian Gulf, Korea, etc.), I have to assume this kind of disloyalty isn't typical of SNCO leadership. It couldn't be. A senior NCO that behaved in that fashion would soon find his/her troops unwilling to follow and trust him/her. As for the UCMJ, well, there's always a higher-ranking officer who can prefer the charges....

But that wouldn't be necessary. A few "secret" words in a performance report--or a lower rating, or deciding not to forward it for higher endorsement--a changed work assignment, or even a crummy follow-on assignment would take care of that. But those things are so rarely required; I'd hate to think civilians reading this thread would come away with the feeling that the behavior described above is typical. And if it is, it reflects incredibly poorly on the NCO corps.

In my years of command, I had just one "open revolt" from an NCO. A promotable MSgt (E-7) who was disrespectful to not just me, but all officers. I observed it for about 3 months, then reassigned him from his NCO-in-Charge responsibilities to a production (not supervisory) role in the "sticks." When his evaluation came up, I capped its endorsement level (after getting concurrence from my chain of command, of course). Finally, I arranged (again, with the help of the colonel I worked for) a PCS (permanent change of station) to a remote assignment. Being retirement-eligible, he declined the assignment and retired. A win-win for everyone.

Don't underestimate that "O-3" (or others). He/They just might be smarter and more capable than you think. Instead, help make him a better leader. You'll become a better one from the experience. And your troops will notice the difference.