Homeschooling again

Imagine if all public school kids behaved like homeschool kids. Public schools would be amazing! It all comes down to attitude and upbringing. Kids with great parents aim to succeed. I attribute everything I've become to my parents raising me properly. While I had friends who would go out and get drunk in high school, I was reading and doing college courses. My parents motivated me to do more than the norm.

Dr. Robert Marzano and his research team have stated that after classroom management techniques are used to settle down students in a class, it would still take and additional TEN years for students to master every standard the states impose upon public schools. It's unfortunate that we, as teachers, are rushed to cover things so the kids can take a stupid assessment test at the end of the year to make the big wigs in the capital feel good about themselves.

If anything, homeschool kids are lucky they don't have to deal with this No Child Left Behind crap.

 

I'm reasonably sure I could teach my kids simple reading & mathematics, but I have no credentials, training, or experience in the child learning process, how to gauge advancement, or when a child is ready to move to the next level.


If the child understands 1+1, you move on to 1+2. If they get stuck, you stop until they get it. 100% competency. There is no schedule or pressure to adjust your pace of delivery. My 7 year old is in a higher math book (5th grade) than my 9 year old (4th grade). It's not rocket science.

***This isn't an insult to the public school, it's just the circumstances resulting from the situation of one on one vs group school.

 

You wrote: it wouldn't be as much of an issue if the parents followed a curriculum such as that provided by Keystone High Schools. "

Which seems to me as if you are suggesting everyone would use X curriculum.

 

>>


No, it means the surgeon would be teaching anatomy.

 

I believe you're overly simplifying what can be an extremely complex situation. What if they're stuck on 1+2 long after other kids their age are on 12+21? I have no idea (and I wager not many other untrained parents) how to recognize and especially deal with a learning disability.

I don't want to start an argument, but I think saying teaching isn't rocket science is extremely disrespectful to the many teachers (including my children's) who put their all into teaching the kids entrusted to them.

I have the job that is the grand poobah of all in regards to laymen thinking they can do it better than me (police), so I sympathize with teachers who run into that attitude.

 

I still don't see where you're coming from. You said you thought I was implying a national curriculum. I merely used Keystone as an example of existing curriculum that could be used. Nothing about a national curriculum was implied.

 

Interesting.....

California Court Rules Homeschooling Illegal

By Hilary White

LOS ANGELES, March 5, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Thousands of homeschoolers in California are left in legal limbo by an appeals court ruling that homeschooling is not a legal option in the state and that a family who has homeschooled all their children for years must enrol their two youngest in state or private schools. Justice H. Walter Croskey in a written opinion said, "California courts have held that under provisions in the Education Code, parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children."

Full story: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08030503.html

 

Okay... but that's my point. Of course the surgeon would have a knowledge of anatomy. But does he have the knowledge of teaching strategies and learning strategies to effectively teach it? Probably not.

 

No Bruce, I am NOT disrespecting teachers. THAT is part of my point that keeps getting overlooked. Group school teachers have different circumstances than homeschool parents. They are apples and oranges. I think a portion of the problem is that people argue as if it is an "either or" decision. EITHER homeschooling OR public school. Both can exist. Not everyone should homeschool, probably not even a majority of people should homeschool.....but how or if they do doesn't have anything to do with what is going on in a group school.

What works in one setting shouldn't be assumed to work in another. I think many people make the mistake of assuming that by someone choosing to homeschool- they are denouncing public schools (or slamming teachers) which in my experience isn't really the case.

As to your question about what I would do if my child were stuck on 12+21 longer than their age mates? Answer: Continue. Each day every day. When my child's age mates master that problem is of little concern to me. The finish line for a homeschooled child doesn't need to match those in his age group. Simply doing his best, consistently, and challenging the child is all that is necessary.

 

So you have no problem with a 13 year-old operating at a 3rd grade education level?

My point is that many homeschool parents, through either ignorance or stubborness, will not recognize or not acknowledge when their children need help beyond their own limited capabilities. Your cavalier attitude towards your own child's progress seems to support that point.

 

What is it that homeschooling advocates want the rest of us to accept?

In these threads there are 'I homeschool my kids' statements, along with anecdotal boasts about how these homeschooled children are all doing better than they would have done in public school.

So my first question is whether that's people's own (perhaps inflated) opinion of their own teaching effectiveness, or whether these kids are out-performing by some more objective measure.

There's talk about homeschooled kids being held back by classrooms filled with slower children. There's the assertion that parents are better able than professional teachers to teach these fast-moving kids. I'm not entirely convinced that I believe that, but let's for the sake of argument accept that it's all true.

So what's the proposed homeschooling conclusion look like at this point? Where is all of this rhetoric heading?

Is the homeschooling premise a modest one? Is it simply the assertion that some as yet undefined set of students can best thrive with personal tutoring, which in some cases can be effectively provided by some again undefined set of well-educated and highly-committed parents? In other words, should homeschooling be conceived as an unusual practice that's most appropriate in special cases? I wouldn't really have much argument with that (but the devil's always in the details).

Or is the homeschooling premise something rather more grandiose than that? Are individual homeschooling successes being generalized to the entire population of students and parents? Is an implicit or explicit promise being made: 'What works for us will work for you too! Pull your kids out of school and try it!'? That's perhaps my biggest concern. I fear that these threads are terrible examples of false generalization.

Really the only qualification required to become a parent is possession of functioning genitalia and some sex-drive. That's a pretty low hurdle.

We've heard from the parents who are convinced that their children are being held back. But what about the rest of the herd, the low-end? Countless people are busily having children that they are unwilling or unable to care for properly. These products of disfunctional homes are one of the big reasons why so many public schools are struggling. (In addition to being flooded with children who don't speak English etc.)

Is it realistic to expect the same homes that are already creating so many problems for the public schools will be able to homeschool their own children more effectively than the public schools can teach them?

So homeschooling is obviously not a realistic choice for the entire population. There are suitable homeschooling homes out there and there are homes that aren't. So who makes that determination and how? How intrusive should government oversight be?

Should there be educational qualifications for prospective homeschooling parents? (And shouldn't it be tougher to homeschool high-school than elementary school? Think "chemistry" or "algebra".) Should homeschooling parents be required to pass some training course like a teaching-credential-lite? Should full-time working parents be allowed to homeschool? (Who supervises the kids during the day?) Should there be a mandated curriculum? Should number of instructional hours be required? Should homeschooled children be required to pass some kind of grade-level equivalency exams? Should there be legal provision for terminating homeschooling privileges if there's evidence it isn't working? (Or is homeschooling being claimed as an inalienable parental right?)

And on and on...

 

I don't think home schoolers want the entire country to follow suit. Most of the defense of home schooling on the two or so threads here has been a response to others who don't think it works, or is about as advisable as "home dentistry" etc. I don't think the whole country should be home schooling, nor would it work if everyone wanted to. It is not a brain washing cult, so relax. I don't really care if you accept it or not. What I would like is for others to use a little discretion when they starting spouting off about something they know little about, using mostly anecdotal evidence.

As for full-time working parents home schooling, I can tell you I don't know of any. One parent may work, but the other stays home and does the home schooling. I don't know where you got the idea that home schooling was something that was fit in around 40-50 hour work weeks. It just isn't done. This is another reason why it can't be done by the entire country.

Yes it is harder to home school high schoolers. Many home schooled children return to traditional schools for high school. However, as I've said elsewhere, there are lots of classes that have sprung up to serve home schoolers with algebra, sciences etc. In this way, home schooling has become, in some cases, a hybrid of pure home schooling and traditional schooling. None of this should be a surprise; it's a reaction to the growing needs and numbers of home schoolers. The number of home schoolers in CA is huge. This makes perfect sense given the terrible condition, generally, of the public schools.

Should there be some sort of legal termination of the arrangement if it isn't working? I don't know. Do you want taxpayer dollars going to policing something you don't approve of in the first place? How would this be done? In the vast majority of cases in my experience it is working. A de facto termination has been occuring in the public schools for some time now, because they aren't working. Students and parents are fleeing, and schools are closing. Just this week it was announced that public schools in Alameda, CA would have to shut down their sports because of the state budget cuts. Should we now bring in the government to visit homeschools and implement some kind of No Child Left Behind program?

As evidence of the success of home schooling, more and more universities and colleges are reaching out to recruit home schoolers. Stanford has a full-time admissions officer dedicated to reviewing apps from home schoolers. UC Riverside actively recruits home schoolers and advertises as "home school friendly."

So nothing to worry about. No one is trying to twist your arm or take over the country. Home schooling is a perfectly reasonable response from some parents who feel they can do a better job. By and large parents who don't feel they can, of course, don't. Relax.

 

Tom,

I have been steering clear of this debate because I get very emotional over this topic. We are a homeschooling family and for us, homeschooling has worked very well.

My wish for the government is to respect the wishes of parents who desire to have an alternative for the failing public school system (as a community college teacher - our c.c. deals with a great deal of "high school and middle school teaching"). Please big brother, leave homeschoolers alone, who by and large do a great job with children.

Shawn

 

The crux of the problem

And Shawn, your conclusion is precisely what the concern is about.

1) The entire public school system is "failing"? C'mon ... empirical data please.
Of course there are going to be more failures in the massively large and hugely diverse public school system than the much smaller and more homogeneous homeschooling community.

[Funny but there doesn't seem to be much said about failing homeschooled students or homeschoolers. I find it hard to believe it is because there aren't any!]

2) Two problems here: "being left alone" is often a euphemism for a desire to expose children to theories/philosophies which are inappropriate in public schools either due to lack of empirical rigor or philosophical exclusion. And funny that a homeschooler declares the public school system as "failing" but homeschoolers as "by and large do a great job."

Little confirmation bias in play there?

Like any human endeavor, there are good public schools and there are good homeschoolers and there are both schools and homeschoolers who can't get the job done.

Both can co-exist peacefully without demonizing the other.

Steve

 

Without peforming a lit review

http://education-portal.com/articles/Top_5_Reasons_Why_Public_Schools_Are_Failing_Our_Children.html

And so far - it appears that homeschoolers are outperforming in college as well:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3955/is_200404/ai_n9383889/pg_1

I won't dispute that there are homeschoolers that have issues and there are some parents who shouldn't homeschool, but in the aggregate, homeschool students outperform their peers.

The choice is obviously the parent - what is best for their children. For our family, we have made the choice.

To be left alone means just that. You haven't had social workers pounding at your door, or have had the school district harass you for operating a homeschool program

http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/wi/200606070.asp

But IMO, the public schools have declared war, becuase they are looking at the dollars that are being lost because many parents are voting with their feet and pulling their children out. I'm curious if the judges in the California Case have the financial support of teachers unions, etc.

Shawn

 

Oh c'mon ...

Geez Shawn,

I try to encourage a more balanced approach ... that there are plusses and minuses to both sides and one needn't demonize either.

You respond with an article based upon "statistics" from The Heritage Foundation -- a widely known ultra conservative think tank -- which just repeat right-wing talking points.

The other article, a true study found

No significant difference in:

• first-year grade point averages
  
• college retention during their first-year (fall to spring semester)
  
• first-year credit hours earned
  
• the ACT Composite scores
  
• the ACT English test scores
  
• the ACT Mathematics test
  
• the ACT Reading test scores
  
• the ACT Science Reasoning test scores; and
  
• No correlation between the variables: first-year grade point average, first year earned credit hours, first-year retention, and the ACT Composite test score

So, homeschoolers aren't doing so badly ... but neither are the "failing" public schoolers either.

Might this be where some of the negative views of homeschoolers arise -- the cloaking of the decision in dubious rationale?

Steve

 

One other thing ...

I loved how the Heritage Foundation article insinuated that the problem with public schools are that they are not answerable to parents but are beholden to "politics and school boards."

Just who do they think fuel these politics and sit on the school boards?

Parents and citizens of the community! (Anyone remember how Kansas changed their science curriculum?)

And, "social workers pounding at your door"? C'mon, exaggerating a bit aren't you? Do you honestly believe homeschoolers should have no oversight? Anyone can visit a public school and see performance data or observe a class. But society should just take your word for it that your children are being educated? Do you want to accept the damage to the entire homeschooling community's reputation when it is discovered that one family's homeschooling is nothing more than letting the kids watch TV?

Wouldn't you like to know that your homeschooling compatriots have to meet at least some minimal standards?

So you're doing it right -- and maybe, legitimately, you are.

But we're all just supposed to take it on faith?
You aren't giving public schools such a benefit of the doubt.

Steve

 

And when the public schools fail - there is no accountabilty there either - the teachers have tenure, etc.

http://www.edspresso.com/generalfiles/firing_chart.pdf


And I have a different take from the article I posted:

Conclusions

Families who home school their children should not feel that the education they are providing is inferior to the traditional K-12 education of their neighborhood peers.

Although not statistically significant, the average first-year GPAs, credits earned in the first year, ACT Composite test scores, and ACT English, Mathematics, Reading, and Science and Reasoning subtests for home school graduates were all higher than traditional high school graduates. Although the sample was relatively small, the ACT Composite test score results for home school graduates was an average of 22.8, which matched identically to the national average in 2000 for home school students (ACT 2000). The national average for all students in 2000 was 21, which was nearly identical to the 21.3 average for the traditional high school graduate.

The academic performance analyses indicate that home school graduates are as ready for college as traditional high school graduates and that they perform as well on national college assessment tests as traditional high school graduates. The results of this study are also consistent with other studies on the academic performance of home school students compared to traditional high school graduates (Galloway 1995, Gray 1998, Jenkins 1998, Mexcur 1993). These results also suggest that a parent-guided K-12 education does not have a negative effect on a student's college success.

And by the way - I'm not exagerating - that was my family's account.

I'm not going to get into a peeing match; we obviously aren't going to agree, but the vast, vast majority of homeschool parents homeschool because of love and a desire for their children to perform better. I do not want or need "big brother government" infringing on my 4th amendment right of privacy in my home. By increasing oversight of homeschoolers resources are being squandered that could be used to improve the public schools...that is, if the NEA and other education agencies will permit legitimate reform to happen.