Homeschooling again

I'm going to offer my perspective as I did not see a similar one posted. I could have missed it though. I'll try to keep it short.

As a child I attended no fewer than 10 schools in the US and Canada. This includes public and private schools in both countries, as well as some homeschooling. I missed more school than I attended and finally stopped altogether at the age of 13. I presently have an MS in chemistry so I guess my lack of education didn't hurt me none (lame Paul Simon reference).

My personal feeling is that homeschooling has a place in certain situations. Most of these situations are in isolated areas where a more traditional educational experience is not available. If a parent has an opportunity to serve as a caretaker at a lighthouse or resort on an island, by all means homeschool and give your child this unique experience.

If the locals schools are truly unacceptable (violent, excessive lack of discipline, etc.) then of course homeschooling is preferable. An occasional school yard fist fight is not my idea of violent, but regular visits by police probably indicate the violence is unacceptable. Too many disruptions of any kind and the quality of education plummets. We all have to decide for ourselves at what point the situation is unacceptable.

If there is a nearby non-violent school then I feel an involved parent with a child attending school is a better option. The main benefit of private schools is that with parents paying big money they are more likely to be involved or at least insist their child is trying to learn. If I had kids (and I don't unless you count my dog) I would likely choose a non-religious private school and provide the religious (for lack of a better term) education myself.

 

I am somewhat the same. I missed so much school growing up that it is a wonder that I can form a complete sentence. LOL.

Because of my back ground growing up (parents were drug addicts) I became very troubled at school. I ended up in and out of juvenile lock-up from the age of 12-17. During those years there was very little formal learning going on.

Finally, at the age of 14, I quit school all together. After the 5th grade my education was very sketchy to say the least. Before this I was a straight A student. In the end I was out of school after 2 weeks in the eighth grade. In reality the highest grade completed was the 7th grade.

I had, and still have, some learning gaps that have been a challenge to overcome. I am a reasonably intelligent and determined person, so I have come a long way from that at this point in my life.

I should be starting my MBA this summer. Business wise, I have been very successful. I have been employed by some fine companies and I have owned 3 different companies. Not only that, but I was involved in other start-ups with the most recent on being a medical device company that will go public shortly.

While I do advocate structured and formal education, I also realize that there are many ways to learn in life. I would never recommend going the route that I did. Saying that, if you have enough hunger, you can do many things in life.

Hopefully all children will get a good education one way or another. Home schooling can be a very good option. Each child and situation is different.

 

Wow!

Is there anywhere else in the world where -- during a discussion about education -- having earned the highest academic degree would be met with derision?

1) I made no such "grievious generalization." I take issue with the entire "leave us alone" party. As I amply illustrated, educating our children is too important a task to be done in secret. But, if you are trying to insinuate that some homeschoolers are not trying indoctrinate their children into their religious/social/political philosophy you are either stunningly naive or blissfully ignorant.

2) You concur that the supporting evidence will be hard to find but still criticize the point being made as lacking supporting evidence. You can get a whiplash from such circular logic.

Last I checked, the definition of anecdotal was "Information based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis" -- and that is precisely the nature of your "evidence."

I never attempted to convey that my observations were empirical evidence. Why are you trying to?

Have, and will continue to do so.

"Advised to keep records of attendance, curriculum, and peformance assessment" Advised?

The first cynical lesson a classroom teacher learns is "they never complain when they pass." This is one of the biggest challenges a professional teacher faces -- how do you convey bad news to a student/parent? Not every child will be the next Einstein. But far too many students (and parents) feel s/he IS next in line. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I can tell you from firsthand experience, teachers are pressured to ignore weaknesses or euphemize them to being meaningless.

In a homeschool setting, is Mom/Dad really going to tell Junior he just isn't getting geometry? S/he gave it more than above average effort. Everyone did their best, but this just isn't Junior's strength? What if Junior is having trouble handling the 4th grade curriculum? Will Mr. & Mrs. Homeschool have him "repeat" the grade and report that fact to the local school department? I'm doubting that any information which would cast a negative light on the home school will be shared. There is too much personal capital invested.

But, of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about, because it seems the homeschool advocates here ALL have the next Einstein in their programs because, remember, no one fails in home school!

So I guess that naiviete/ignorance is pretty high.
Fine, so your home school has no religious component. Great.
Many others do.

I worked for a publishing company that tried to put out a resource journal for non-secular home schools, feeling that the vast majority of materials were crafted for religious themed homeschoolers.

The project failed spectacularly. There just was no interest in a non-religious home school publication.

Yes, I know some have been established. But the fact remains that many home schoolers do so because they want to be able to present a curriculum aligned with their religious beliefs.

That is the "other discussion."

I was trying to remain focused on the original point on the best plan to secure quality for home schooling in general.

Gee, Jennifer, you're "done" with this topic unless someone agrees with you?

Define the "failure group"? Pretty simple.
Students who do not master grade level material in the homeschool setting and/or return to public/private school.

Ooo, wait, that might be a bit too broad huh? Because a fair number of home schoolers do it for a period of time (e.g. elementary school) and then reintegrate into public/private schools.

So is that a "failure" or a "choice"?

Yup, pretty easy to muddle the performance outcomes in the home school setting.

[And please, stop trashing public schools with every comment you make. We know you feel they have failed on a massive scale. But insinuating that failure is evidenced by the larger number of failing students than in home schools is just lazy analysis. You cannot compare outcomes of an open access system of tens of millions with a self-selected system of 1 million with a simple numerical count. Then again, as pointed out here, there may be no comparision at all because no one is willing to admit when a homeschooler fails!]

 

"Is there anywhere else in the world where -- during a discussion about education -- having earned the highest academic degree would be met with derision?"

I'm not making fun of the PhD, rather your eagerness to apply critical thinking arguments, even if they don't exactly apply.

"As I amply illustrated, educating our children is too important a task to be done in secret. But, if you are trying to insinuate that some homeschoolers are not trying indoctrinate their children into their religious/social/political philosophy you are either stunningly naive or blissfully ignorant."

You bring up isolated cases for which you offer no real evidence. I'm talking about home schooling in general, based on real experience. I have acknowledged that there are abuses so I am neither naive nor ignorant. You seem to want to question the whole practice based on a minority of abuses. If that makes you feel better, then go ahead, but it's not really an argument.

"Last I checked, the definition of anecdotal was "Information based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis" -- and that is precisely the nature of your "evidence"

Fine, but my information is based on actually doing home schooling, going to regional conferences attended by thousands, talking with other families, and participating in active, local home school groups. Yours seems to be based on things you've heard. In the hierarchy of evidence, yours doesn't measure up. Sorry.

"The first cynical lesson a classroom teacher learns is "they never complain when they pass." This is one of the biggest challenges a professional teacher faces -- how do you convey bad news to a student/parent? Not every child will be the next Einstein. But far too many students (and parents) feel s/he IS next in line. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I can tell you from firsthand experience, teachers are pressured to ignore weaknesses or euphemize them to being meaningless.

In a homeschool setting, is Mom/Dad really going to tell Junior he just isn't getting geometry? S/he gave it more than above average effort. Everyone did their best, but this just isn't Junior's strength? What if Junior is having trouble handling the 4th grade curriculum? Will Mr. & Mrs. Homeschool have him "repeat" the grade and report that fact to the local school department? I'm doubting that any information which would cast a negative light on the home school will be shared. There is too much personal capital invested."

First, I don't need a primer on the lessons learned by a classroom teacher, since I spend 75 hours a week doing just that. Second the "The first cynical lesson" that you refer too is neither the first, nor is it cynical (not sure how a lesson can be cynical in the first place?). It's actually not that much of a problem. In almost all cases "Johnny" can get it with more intense, often one-on-one instruction (hmmm, kind of what happens in a home school - funny thing). The failures tend to happen when Johhnny doesn't make the effort to get extra help, or when I don't have the time or resources to devote to it.

Your comment is what I object to most about your stance in general. You make sweeping statements of authority about the way things are, but when push comes to shove you don't have real experience, and you seem to be talking about your personal feelings on the matter. That's fine, but you shoul qualify it as such.

"But, of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about, because it seems the homeschool advocates here ALL have the next Einstein in their programs because, remember, no one fails in home school!"

Ah, finally a kernal of truth amidst your sarcasm. But seriously, here again you've made a sweeping generalization based on nothing. Qualify it as your opinion, and I'll have no objections. And if we're applying critical thinking skills to your statement (and I'm not sure why I bother, given it's a throw-away statement), not failing hardly equates to your child being the next Einstein.

"I worked for a publishing company that tried to put out a resource journal for non-secular home schools, feeling that the vast majority of materials were crafted for religious themed homeschoolers.

The project failed spectacularly. There just was no interest in a non-religious home school publication.

Yes, I know some have been established. But the fact remains that many home schoolers do so because they want to be able to present a curriculum aligned with their religious beliefs."

These days, the number of non-secular curriculums far outnumber the secular. You could by any general book on home schooling (See Mary Pride's available from Amazon e.g.), and consult the listing of common curriculums and verify this for yourself. If your project failed, it was for another reason.

 

The "other" discussion

New York Times
Many Muslims Turn to Home Schooling

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/us/26muslim.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1206525650-bCQKuTQVocECbOQ6x972Ig

Interesting quote:
"Their families want them to retain their culture and not become Americanized,” said Roberta Wall, the principal of the district-run Independent School, which supervises home schooling in Lodi and where home-schooled students attend weekly hourlong tutorials."

 

Hello kettle, it's the pot calling

Tom,

I find it so curious that you repeatedly attempt to mischaracterize my comments about sweeping generalizations by calling them sweeping generalizations.

Your last post was the first where I saw a home-school proponent acknowledge even the possibility of home schooling having a negative side.

That is all I have ever been trying to advocate that not all public schools are evil and not all home schools are salvation.

And for the record, I hold a state teaching certificate in high school chemistry and general science, taught science in a large inner-city district for nearly 10 years, currently hold adjunct college faculty appointments to two universities where one course I teach is educational psychology. No, I am not an experienced home schooler, but I am a veteran educator -- one who is willing to acknowledge the challenges facing non-home schooling and not pretend it is an end-all-be-all one-size-fits-all solution.

Home schoolers -- will you do the same?

 

one who is willing to acknowledge the challenges facing non-home schooling and not pretend it is an end-all-be-all one-size-fits-all solution.

Home schoolers -- will you do the same?[/QUOTE]

>>

Is that really what you got all worked up about? Well, in any event, I said as much back on page 1.

THAT is part of my point that keeps getting overlooked. Group school teachers have different circumstances than homeschool parents. They are apples and oranges. I think a portion of the problem is that people argue as if it is an "either or" decision. EITHER homeschooling OR public school. Both can exist. Not everyone should homeschool, probably not even a majority of people should homeschool.....but how or if they do doesn't have anything to do with what is going on in a group school. What works in one setting shouldn't be assumed to work in another. I think many people make the mistake of assuming that by someone choosing to homeschool- they are denouncing public schools (or slamming teachers) which in my experience isn't really the case.

 

Not sure where "on page 1" you said this, because so many of your comments have parroted the "Big Brother leave us alone" line.

Regardless, "leave us alone" has been the overarching theme of your multitude of comments, a philosophy which I find troubling and problematic as it tends to engender abuses. No, the public systems aren't perfect but the reason many of them exist is the simple reality that 1) individuals cannot be experts at everything; 2) being "left alone" all too often leads to tragic consequences.

 

>>

The reason we disagree is because we have deep philosophic differences that roll off into homeschooling. (we would disagree on a number of issues to be sure). I respect your opinion, but the liberal vs conservative gap has been going on for decades- and it isn't going to be closed here- and that clearly is the crux of our differences.

 

If that's all you've been trying to say, then it seems you could have said just that, just that simply. That's not really all you were saying. Go back and look at your posts. They were offensive to a lot of homeschoolers (we're all hiding something, we're all religious kooks, we all think we're educating the next Einstein, etc.).

 

Start from the beginning then

Forgive me Tom, but I have been trained, when fired upon, return fire.

I always try to start a discussion with some basic information or requests for clarification. Sadly, all too often, I am responded to with illogic, specious argument, and/or character assassination.

And then, we're off to the races ...

 

Reflections from a public, public charter, private, and home educator

What a fascinating discussion! Excellent points and concerns expressed all around. I’ll just add my observations as one who has 1) taught at public and private K-12 schools (including a charter school) and universities, 2) trained thousands of teachers in university teaching credential programs, 3) supervised teacher credential candidates at school sites, 4) is on the board of directors of a charter school, teach face-to-face, hybrid and online courses and 5) have had children educated in public, public charter, private and via homeschool.

Now, after that incredibly pompous introduction (which really makes no one on this forum any less qualified than I am to post her or his opinion), I’d like to offer my 1 ½ cents:

Although my wife and I are advocates for homeschooling our own children, we believe, as has been expressed well by several here already, the education of one’s children is one of parents’ most important and sacred responsibilities and, as such, parents need to be aware of all the available learning options for their children. While I do not believe that all families are cut out for homeschooling, I also know many parents who spend more time researching and shopping for a big screen TV than they do in considering where their children will be spending over ½ of there weekday waking hours.

Certainly, there is as much variation in the quality of homeschooling as there is in the variation of public and private schooling. While research studies have shown consistently that the homeschooled children studied have not suffered academically and socially, there are quack parents schooling their children at home and quack teachers in classrooms. When we talk about regulation, things get sticky, since evaluation tends to be the weakest area in education (it is very difficult to do well). We were to pass a law stating that a home-educated child who scored below “average grade achievement” could no longer be taught at home, could we be consistent and say that a public school-educated child who also scored below “average grade achievement” could no longer be educated in a public school?

I recently presented at a home-education conference with over 1,200 in attendance. I saw many different types of homeschoolers and homeschool styles, from yuppies to hippies (I have teacher colleagues who also fall within those categories). Some used “canned” curriculum, some used classical “great books,” some used constructivist-based “unschooling,” others used free online learning materials, webquests and lessons from the Internet (tons of fee stuff there). None of the older children seem to have had difficulty entering and succeeding in college/university.

Homeschooling works for many children and their parents, public, public charter and private schooling works for many children and their parents. Unfortunately, I also know many children for whom public school does not work, but the parents will not learn about or even consider other options. For those parents on Degreeinfo that take the time to investigate the options, visit the schools, talk to the teachers and administrators and realistically consider other options, such as home-education, bravo to you!

Anthony Piña, Ed.D.

 

Thank you Anthony, that was a great post.