Distance Law School

Update

Nosborne--

I guess I must face it. I have become addicted to DL study. I can't go "cold turkey," so I enrolled in BUSL's DL course in legislative drafting. http://www.bu.edu/law/lawdrafting/distance.html

As you may know I wear several hats. I'm also a chiropractor, and an NGO representative at the UN. I've been very active politically in chiropractic, and the legislative drafting course seems like a logical enhancement.

As for practice, I'm still ruminating. I've applied to take the WI bar exam (WI is my home state).

Christopher

 

Good advice

Nosborne's advice to make the FYLSX your first goal is great advice. That's what I did. The path is less onerous if you "chunk it down" and reward yourself for each step--FYLSX--MPRE--GBX.

I decided that if I could pass the FYSLX, I'd continue to complete the JD. If not, I'd still have gained some useful information.

Thankfully, I passed the FYLSX on my first try, and continued.

My interest was obtaining the law license, a credential in it's own right. An unaccredited JD without bar admission seemed pretty worthless. I know the "executive JD" enthusiasts would disagree, but I'm with nosborne on that issue.

I can't imagine an "executive" MD, DDS, DC, etc.

Christopher

 

Good question, Ted!

Great thread, Kristibc! Thanks for the great responses, Nosborne, Caldog, Ted Heiks, RobbCD, Randy, cbkent, etc.

CalDog provides an excellent synopsis of a vexing issue. Ted Heiks' question above is a very good, and useful, question.

Some published responses, empirical, opinions or otherwise (examples: (here, here, here and here) run the gamus from poor quality instruction via absence of quality standards, presence of permissive curriculums, etc., to poor quality of entering students (which, in part, derives from poor prior quality of instruction elsewhere and/or poor preparation), probably another one of those chicken-egg educational outcome scenarios.

Any further thoughts on Ted Heiks' question on law school failure rates vs quality vs students/instructions, etc. would be appreciated.

(My apologies to you in advance, Kristibc. This is not meant to deviate the thread from your legal quest, but hopefully, can and will add to it.)

Thanks.

 

That looks like a very cool course!

I've drafted a few pieces of legislation over the years and I've made mistakes and gotten into trouble with it, too.

A course like that would have been invaluable!

Good luck in Wisconsin (not that you'll need it.)

 

I strongly agree with Nosborne's assessment that for a California resident a distance learning JD can make a great deal of sense.

Having said this, if practice is not an issue, the MS in Legal Studies at California University of Pennsylvania might fit the bill:

http://www.cup.edu/graduate/legal/index.jsp

Also, the University of London external programme now offers a wide range of graduate level courses in law that do not require a previous legal education. They have an American Constitutional Law module in the works (not offered for 2005-2006) and it also seems to me that they will be having offerings in the area of comparitive constitutional law.

Actually, the new graduate laws makeup is very interesting. There is a lot a variety and you can exit early with a post grad certificate of diploma, giving lots of flexibility.

http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/postgraduate/laws/index.shtml

 

I'm curious to what actually constitutes "practicing law"?? I am looking into a career in financial/estate planning. I am planning to complete a MBA in Financial Planning from www.cityu.edu and eventually obain a Certified Financial Planner- CFP(r) designation. However, I have seen job descriptions that say something like, "MBA, JD, or CFP a plus." So what will a non-bar JD allow you do do if you're not actually "practicing law."

 

Nosbourne:

How many credits in a JD program?

Thankz

 

Bullet,

My J.D. took 86 s.h., IIRC Actually, though, the number of credits varies from school to school. I've seen a high of 90 s.h. and a low of 82 or so.

It doesn't really matter except for tuition. You can't transfer any previous, non law school credit into any ABA or CalBar or D/L program. A J.D. will take in minimum of six semesters full time or eight semesters part time though under some circumstances it will take longer.

You CAN ask for exemption from the intermediate subjects in the London LL.B. but doing so may rob the degree of whatever utility it may have had in the U.S.

futuremillionaire,

That is a sticky question. It depends on how (and if) the state or country defines it and is often not clear even then.

novemberdude,

All ture. The new London program is a vast improvement over, and vastly more expensive than, the old program.

 

Sorry, I'm not nosborne, but JDs are usually 90 semester hours or 135 quarter hours.

 

nosborne: On the practice of law issue, I seem to rember an older edition of Bear's Guide (though I can no longer find it) which claimed that a JD who hasn't passed the Bar can still meet with clients, research cases, do negotiations and agreement writing, anything that a lawyer can do shy of actually arguing cases in court. Is this generally true?

 

Law school

First of all I want to say thank-you to everyone who provided input and information on the various DL law school options available. However, I am no closer to making a decision and I am even further away than I was a couple of days ago. I thought I had done a fairly good job researching for the past year, reading this forum, checking the schools out online, making phone calls, and checking the California State bar web page. http://www.calbar.ca.gov/state/calbar/calbar_home.jsp
Now I'm not sure. I spent a good chunk of the day calling four of the DL schools I felt were the best choice for me. ( Taft http://www.taftu.edu/lw1.htm , Abraham Lincoln http://www.alu.edu/ , Northwestern http://www.nwculaw.edu/index.shtml , Oakbrook http://www.obcl.edu/ ) My main question was about student attrition, not how it applied to the school so much but how it applied to the student. What type of student stood the best chance for success, and of those who did succeed what was the common denominator they all shared.
First of all, everyone I spoke to was very friendly and helpful, without exception. Everyone was very happy to give me the information I wanted and then some, with Oakbrook and Taft going above and beyond. One of the schools told me that only 15-20% of the students who begin DL law at their school actually finish. I think these numbers are pretty consistent. However, Oakbook has lost only 17 of the 65 student that began this year which is a better rate. And over all students that make it through the first year and pass the FYLSX tend to continue and finish. After the first year the drop out rate stabilizes with students drooping out for more significant reasons such as health, family, work or other major problems. Consistently all four schools said the drop out rate during the first year is due to students not realizing how difficult the program would be, poor study habits, poor organization and lack of motivation. Each and every one of the schools told me this is a difficult option and not to be taken lightly. They all told me that they would not encourage me or any other student to "go ahead and try it, sign up and see, etc., they want to make it clear to the prospective students that this is going to be hard work.
Abraham Lincoln has an open house of February 7th that I may check out and Taft invited me to the campus to check it out, to take a look at the actual law books and the curriculum they use. Oakbrook suggested I might want to take an online legal assistant course they offer to give me a taste of home study. Although the class would not be as intense as a JD course it may give me an indication if is was right for me.
I like the idea of aiming for one year, taking the Baby Bar and going from there. I did call one Cal Bar accredited school near me, La Verne http://law.ulv.edu/ and asked if they transfer any correspondence credit after you successfully pass the Baby Bar and they said no but referred me to Trinity http://www.tiu.edu/law/ but I haven't contacted them yet.
Oh, so much to think about.

Thanks again for all the input,
Kristi:

 

Practice of law

Weeeellll...not exactly. Unlicensed people CAN appear as advocates in certain administrative hearings such as before the Patent Office, Social Security, Immigration, Internal Revenue (and some state taxation agencies) and such.

Non lawyers CANNOT (generally) prepare pleadings or other legal documents (except in connection with the above) where the selection or wording of the document will affect the client's rights.

Non lawyers CAN prepare, file and serve pleadings in any Court on behalf of pro se parties so long as they act as "scriviners", merely putting into proper foprmat the words of the client. Some states, like California and Arizona, actually LICENSE these non lawyers.

A non lawyer working under the direct supervision of a licensed attorney can do even more though (technically) the non lawyer cannot ever give legal advice. But he CAN pass legal advice on to the client...in New Mexico, we don't license these "paralegals" but we do have a voluntary associate membership division in the State Bar for them. There's a nice certificate and, more important, members receive a listing in the Bench and Bar Directory.

 

BAR EXAM QUALIFYING CORRESPONDENCE LAW SCHOOLS,
with July 2000 to Feb. 2002 Bar exam pass rates

Abraham Lincoln University www.alu.edu (BG15, 247): 3/31 (10%) first-timers 5/63 (8%) all takers
British American University www.british-american.edu (BG15, 247): 0/1 (0%) first-timers 2/5(40%) all takers
Concord University www.concord.kaplan.edu (BG15, 248)
Laurel University www.laureluniversity.com
University of London www.londonexternal.ac.uk (BG15, 248)
Newport University www.newport.edu (BG15, 248): 1/5 (20%) first-timers 2/19 (11%) all takers
Northwestern California University www.nculaw.edu (BG15, 248): 6/17 (35%) first-timers 11/57 (19%) all takers
Oak Brook College of Law and Public Policy www.obcl.edu (BG15, 248): 24/38 (63%) first-timers 31/52 (60%) all takers
Saint Francis eUniversity www.sfeu.net
Saratoga University www.saratogau.edu (BG15, 248): 0/5 (0%) first-timers 2/10 (20%) all takers
Southern California University for Professional Studies www.scups.edu (BG15, 248): 0/4 (0%) first-timers 0/11 (0%) all takers
William Howard Taft University www.taftu.edu (BG15, 248): 9/33 (27%) first-timers 26/112 (23%) all takers

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Law school

Probably both. Correspondence schools accept anyone with a valid credit card, and do not require the LSAT, which is perhaps the singlemost reliable indicator of law school success. So your statistical "n" of incoming students is wider than even a third-tier ABA school.

Then you have quality of instruction that varies within this category, from true "correspondence" schools that send you a box of books and wishes you the best, to a full-service institution like Concord, which is organized along the lines of a brick and mortar institution.

So YMMV considerably: the self-motivated student who can read the casebooks and hornbooks, and "get it" on his/her own will thrive anywhere; the ones that need more hand-holding, lectures, and access to faculty for office-hours will thrive only in a place like Concord, and most likely, really need a B&M institution if they expect to succeed.

 

Correspondence law school

FYI
While I was looking into the correspondence law schools I noticed the pictures on Laurel University's web page looked familiar. Sure enough they are the identical pics from British-America's web page ( http://www.british-american.edu/ )and the entire page looks as if it was cut and pasted to the other. The facility listed at BA is now employed at Laurel. I called BA and reached Dr. Roger Agajanian's office. ( the women answering the phone identified it as such) I asked her if British America was no longer in business and she said she did not know. She had heard it was then wasn't and Dr. Agajanian had not confirmed it to her. ????? What???

O.K. BA is done and it is now Laurel University. http://www.laureluniversity.com/

Oh the tangled web we weave......

Kristi

 

TED & NOSBOURNE

Ted and Nosbourne:

Thank you both. I am trying to figure out what my Law Degree would be in English. I don't know if I am a LLB or a JD.

Thanks.

 

Re: TED & NOSBOURNE

Since you're from Argentina, is the title of your law degree in Spanish? What does it say? The American JD degree is just an upgraded version of the old LlB from the 1960s and earlier. Perhaps nosborne might be able to tell us more about the difference between the British LlB and the old American LlB. The old American LlB, like the more recent JD, constituted a three-year second bachelor's preceded by the initial four-year bachelor's. The British LlB, if I am not mistaken, is an initial (straight out of high school) three-year bachelor's.

 

Argentinian law degree

I'D GUESS that the Argentinian degree is a "titlulo del derecho". It would probably be CALLED a B.C.L., or Bachelor of Civil Law in this country, and would be regarded as a first professional degree in law.

Only one U.S. law school offers the B.C.L. and that is Louisiana State University. LSU requires all of its J.D. students to complete a seventh semester and confers both the B.C.L. and the J.D. on its graduates. It is not possible to earn just one or the other.

If Argentina follows Mexican practice, possession of the degree itself also constitutes a license to at least begin practicing law. I imagine that there is no "Bar Examination" in the U.S. sense. (n.b. the Bar for England and Wales has abolished its Bar exam.)

The degree I describe would be considered a first degree in law in the U.S. and would support an application to a U.S. LL.M. program. By itself, it would not qualify the holder to take the Bar exam in California even WITH an U.S. LL.M. but if the holder practices law in Argentina for a period of years, that might be enough.

The U.S. J.D. is exactly equivalent to the older (and nearly extinct) U.S. LL.B. It is DEFINITELY NOT the same thing as an English LL.B., even to the English themselves. The Canadian LL.B. falls between the two, much closer to the U.S. model.

FWIW, the J.D. title has begun to appear in certain Australian and Canadian law schools. I know of no ABA U.S. law school that still confers the LL.B. For a while, the rare schools that routinely admitted a few students without bachelor's degrees (ABA allows a minimum of 90 s.h. of undergrad work) sometimes awarded the LL.B. to these students as their first University degree. Now, the "practice", if it is not too rare to constitute a "practice", is for such students to transfer their first year law credits back to their undergraduate schools to complete their bachelor's degrees.

All of this is in contrast with the Californian situation. My IMPRESSION is that most law students in CalBar accredited law schools have a bachelor's degree but this is not a requirement. All of these schools award the J.D. to all graduates.

 

BSL

Some CA correspondence schools offer a BSL (Bachelor of Science in Law) after completing half the JD program. This provides a bachelor's degree for those who do not have one.

I have not encountered BSL degrees elsewhere.

Of course, they do not confer bar eligibility.

 

Re: Argentinian law degree

CalBar schools require an AS or AA degree of thier students as a prerequisite. An AAS will not suffice. IIRC

DesElms knows an awful lot about Calbar JD programs and thier standards for admissions. You might want to PM him for his insight.