"Defending" Degrees

John and Gus: I'm impressed that you were able to identify the incantation so easily!

 

What? Doesn’t everyone insist that the children only speak Latin at the dinner table?

Gus Sainz, who, after all, is Latino.
http://collegedegrees.tripod.com

 

Andy, in my research toward getting myself comfortable with what would be expected of my dissertation product, I did extensive reviews of dissertations produced from students at top tier Universities. Since my methodology is case study, I purchased six case study based dissertations from UMI, all from mid to upper tier Universities such as Penn State, UCLA, Columbia, University of Minnesota, and I forget the other two.

While these dissertations were very good models for me and appeared thoroughly researched and presented, I am convinced any one of them could have had a Walden or NSU name on them. I did not specifically search out the bottom of the barrel. I selected those that met my criteria for methodology and general topic.

While it certainly is highly probable that the cure for cancer will not come from a DL dissertation effort, qualitative dissertations from DL schools appear on a par with qualitative dissertations from any tier of residential schools.

I would challenge anyone that believes there is something uniquely special about qualitative dissertations from residential schools that set them apart from those produced by students at predominantly DL schools to do a UMI search spend a few dollars and make your own judgement.

Paul C.

 

Ditto. I totally concur. I purchased three dissertations from UMI that were written by graduates of MIT, University of Georgia, and NSU respectively. The three dissertations are of the same quality and standard.

 

John, I do think that a lot of respondents to surveys like that tend to soft-pedal the degree to which they prefer certain credentials. I know I've seen this mentality in the legal profession, where large corporate law firms that hire almost exclusively high-ranking students and graduates of elite law schools nevertheless will state on stock recruiting forms that they invite applications from virtually any law student or lawyer. The people who fall outside these preferences but who somehow manage to get hired are those who have extraordinary "other" qualifications.

 

I'm glad I quit the external masters program at the University of Phoenix. I could never defend that program if I were to have graduated (unless I was as fast a talker as a used car salesman).

If anyone challenged me on being a UoP graduate, I would hold my head in shame.

Oh the embarrassment....

 

I just don't understand this thinking. Regional accreditation will sufficiently define and defend almost any degree in almost any situation (except, of course, the very selective or where licensure and/or professional accreditation is required/expected).

Maaaaaaaybe there might be some difficulties ahead for graduates of DL-only RA schools, but that's about it. And I would expect that to be very rare. In most cases, employers aren't going to know, nor will they check. That they even check for accreditation is somewhat iffy. (Hence, the proliferation of degree mills.)

As for degrees earned by DL from campus-based schools (like Phoenix, BTW), who's gonna know? It is routinely reported here that these schools tend not to make any distinction on the diploma or transcript regarding how the degree was earned.

Perhaps this tiny corner of the universe has formed a strong opinion of the University of Phoenix. But most of the working world doesn't know and doesn't care.

Rich Douglas

 

Okay, now I am on the other side, defending Univ of Phoenix:

Maybe I am missing some sarcasm here -- if the above message was sarcastic in nature, then please ignore the rest of this post.

If the message was not sarcastic, then here are some comments on UoP:

Now, admittedly, I had many issues with my UoP MBA experience, which I detailed in another thread. However, I agree with many of the posters in this thread and others that you get out of a program what you put into it. I learned a lot from the program, and there were some good courses and teachers in the program.

For a month or two after I finished the program, I was kind of embarrassed to admit where I got my MBA -- I just preferred to tell people I had an MBA, and left out where I got it from. I work with a bunch of MBA's, however, some of whom went to top schools, and none of them have razzed me about where I went to school -- they seem to treat me like anyone else with an MBA.

As I mentioned in another thread, I think that if I had it to do over again, I would probably pick a more traditional university for my MBA, but I suffer no shame or embarrassment because I have an MBA from UoP.

 

Well, as Richard Douglas pointed out, being regionally accredited does offer the basic cover that most people need. University of Phoenix offers residential and DL programs. My reason for not pursuing a UoP doctorate would have to do with the cost and the name of the degree (what is a DM?).

Let's add this twist: Do we feel that DL programs from RA US schools are easier accepted than say DL programs for respectable foreign institutions?



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David F

 

I fully agree! Much of the stigma regarding DL is the result of less-than-wonderful, highly questionable, degree mill "schools."
Many people continue to associate all DL with something like Trinity C&U, not realizing that scores of RA schools currently offer degrees 100% via DL.

Russell

 

Like you said, most of the world doesn’t know what UoP is all about.

But the fact that ”I” knew that the UoP was a scam bothered me. As a result, I could not hold my head up in pride. I had to leave the program because it bothered my conscience too much.

However, I don’t want to demean you for having completed a UoP program and, unfortunately, that’s what it appears I’m doing. My comments are directed at the UoP external programs and not the students who engage in them.

For the record: I am pro-DL (but anti-UoP).

 

In the majority of career and work situations, not inclusive of academia, it is not where the RA degree emanates from but the individuals' personal presentation, interpersonal skills, personality dynamics and saavy which will determine success. Knowing someone in the upper echelon won't hurt either in achieving the right job!

It is truly interesting to observe how some individuals' will base their success on a diploma rather than understand that as long as their degree is RA, future achievements and success will be primarily based on their level of perceived work performance, ambition and people skills.

The issue of comparing an unaccredited degree to one that is RA and concluding that one will be in the same position in terms of needing to defending themselves sometime in the future is ludicrous! It appears that this perspective stems from a defensive posture to rationalize one's obtaining an unaccredited degree resulting in the presentation of scenarios which are extremely unlikey to occur.

 

Simon, your point of view is well expressed, and I agree 100%. My impression is that many folks on this board are 1) in early career and 2)inclined toward working in academe, where credentials and the pecking order governing those credentials within the venue of the ivory tower are of higher importance than in the business world. One of the points I made in another thread is that as one progresses in a business career, academics become increasingly viewed as ancient history, the "emphasis" on life-long learning notwithstanding, as many recruiters and hiring managers are themselves non-players in that noble endeavor. What does count in business interviews is parlaying one's track record of success, highlighting transferable skills, showing how one can help solve the prospective employer's problems, and demonstrating how to make money and save money. While education draws a quick glance and perhaps some cursory discussion, the name of the game is demonstrating how one will transfer superior performance from the prior employment to meet the new employer's challenges.

I have this perspective for three reasons: 1) I am in late career, 2) have been a hiring manager for a very long time, and 3) have recently been on the other side of the interviewing table as well. My degrees include a BA and MBA from well-known RA universities and a DBA from a California approved university. Many here were aghast that I would have to "defend" the DBA--odd, it hasn't happened yet. But more importantly, it is not the degree(s) that makes the man or lands him the position in business; it's the candidate effectively communicating who opens doors and seizes opportunities. Very few people in this forum grasp the concept from what I have read in these threads. There is an obsession about RA as a silver bullet which unto itself it will never be; and likewise there are exagerated phobias concerning CA-approved doctoral degrees which one will unlikely ever face in a lifetime, since a PhD or DBA is not required in executive jobs anyway!

 

I certainly agree with that. Firstly, because DL by its nature requires successful students to be much more independent and self-motivated. But more importantly, people with an independent entrepeneurial streak are always more successful in everything that they do.

I'm not sure that I agree with that because it seems like an artificial situation. Nobody relies on a degree without bringing anything else to the table. Or, if some 22 year old graduates fresh out of college do try that, few DL graduates do. The DL graduates tend to be older and to already be employed. That's the whole point of the traditional-age full-time college student vs. part-time DL student distinction. It isn't entirely clear to me why the DL students are at a disadvantage in that comparison.

Even though I said that and agree with it, paradoxically it wasn't exactly my point.

I think that human beings are naturally heirarchical animals. People have been trying to claim rank on their neighbors since before we were even human.

Well, until the day comes when distance education is unequivocably the "very best", somebody somewhere will be comparing him or her self to DL and finding it wanting. It's simply the human condition.

My real point is that this is entirely to be expected and that it isn't really as important as it seems.

Higher education transmits information and helps guide the learning process. If DL succeeds in educating its students, what's the problem?

Higher education gives people the academic certifications that they need to formally qualify for certain positions. In most cases, regionally accredited degrees serve that purpose. If you can earn them through DL, cool.

And higher education confers status. How much status it confers depends on a totally arcane set of subtle class distinctions that would do a British aristocrat proud. (Is a knight bachelor higher than a knight grand cross? Is a Ph.D. higher than an Ed.D.? Is Harvard higher than BU? Is a Marquess higher than an Earl? Is residential higher than DL?)

DL may never confer as much status as something else, but if the marginal utility of that status is only partial to begin with, when taken together with experience, and if it declines over time as the relative importance of accomplishments rise, then it probably needs to be kept in perspective.

Degrees don't define destiny.

 

Do you think that DL graduates from Duke, Harvard, Colorado State, Stanford, University of London, etc., spend much time defending their degrees? (hint: the answer is no). The individuals who defend their degrees are those who obtained their degrees from schools that need defending.

Bottom line... it is not distance learning that is the problem, IT IS THE SCHOOLS!

You get a dl degree from a good school, you may explain but you will never need to defend... you get a degree form a bad school, you have a time bomb that you may need to difuse at any moment!!!

 

What I find most interesting re: this thread is that it appears to be promulgated by one poster's attempt to come to terms with his completing an unaccredited degree and how this was then externalized and posed as a ubiquitous issue of concern to include those who possess DL degree!

It is obviously an individual decision as to whether an unaccredited or RA degree meets ones' needs and expectations. However, the problem in working through one's misgivings by presenting rationalizing comparisons is that it inadvertently catalyzes heightened anxiety and negative anticipations upon those who have decided to pursue PA distance learning credentials.

 

...and a DL RA degree is never a time bomb.

John

 

Well, it's not possible to get a totally DL degree from Harvard, Duke, or Stanford, so we'll scratch those right off.

In the case of Colorado State, if your audience is the aforementioned Harvard, Duke, or Stanford alums, the answer is yes (academic snobbery).

If you're an American and have never been to the UK, you'll be doing a lot of explaining & defending a University of London degree.


Bruce

 

As to Stanford see http://scpd.stanford.edu/scpd/default.htm, and particularly http://scpd.stanford.edu/scpd/programs/mastersDegree.htm, agreed you have to work for certain companies and attend some classes, but even UofPhx has taht requirement in certain course.

And for Duke see http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/admin/gemba/ a "innovative master's degree program offered by The Fuqua School of Business for executives and high-potential managers of global corporations. Thanks to a unique format that combines multiple international program sites with advanced interactive technologies, Global Executive students can work and live anywhere in the world while participating in the program."

 

As you said, the Stanford program requires residence. Enough said.

With Duke, you didn't dig deep enough:

"Between residential sessions, Fuqua’s faculty delivers the balance of the instruction using interactive, distance-education technology that complements and extends the classroom experience. As students gain experience in the use of information technology, they develop an understanding of how this technology can and should be used to manage global organizations". http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/admin/gemba/what/index.html

Key words are "residential sessions".

What I originally said is correct, it's not possible to get a totally DL degree from any of those schools.


Bruce