Bashing the Non-RA's

Inferior to me means unacceptable. If you are using a alternate definition it would be great to know what it is. Who else is going judge Academic quality other than our Academic Institutions? That means specificly our regular (ie RA) Universities. So should a person considering a BA, MA or PHD wait and conduct a study before enrolling in a program? Obviously not. It is possible to know things with out exhaustive study. Would it be interesting to know? sure. As Rich has pointed out DETC began as a group to offer protection to consumers of home study program I certainly wouldn't stake my future and reputation on their choices and decisions. Remember DETC chose to accredit ACCIS despite there history and reputation.

 

Perhaps the DETC did start off as a consumer protection group, but then the United States began with 13 colonies. You have only proved the original mission of the organization. The flaw in your logic is binding an organization's genesis to nonconformity.

Your intimated the DETC as a bad accrediting body based on the ACCIS example. Perhaps we should discount certain Regional Accrediting bodies for stamping their imprimatur on the school, only to later strip them later of accreditation? Organizations change as do their missions. I suspect more changes will occur in the future.

 

That's exactly what I meant, I probably could have phrased it better.


Bruce

 

defii proposes exactly the kind of research that I think desperately needs to be done -- and I would extend it beyond just RA and DETC accredited schools.

I've thought of it as a "Turing Test" for schools. For instance: Let us march into the Master's thesis storage area at Harvard, CCHS, and California Coast (for instance), and using a random process, remove five theses in psychology (or any other single field) from the shelves. Remove any identifying marks and references, Xerox them and re-bind them in identical covers, with no clues as to source.

Then let a committee of scholars in the field, from other schools, with experience in evaluating Master's theses, read and evaluate these 15 theses. Better still, let them try to cast them into the original three stacks: the RA, the DETC, and the California-approved.

Wouldn't those be neat data to have? If I owned California Coast or CCHS, I'd be eagerly agreeing to finance such an experiment. The worst that could happen is what all the naysayers believe now anyway, and anything better would be great fodder for marketing and promotion.

(And yes, during my involvements with Columbia Pacific -- 1977-1981, and Greenwich -- 1990-91 -- I did try to persuade my colleagues to do this sort of thing, but to no avail.)

 

John

You are trying to argue to every point except the central point of your question or inquiry. You continue to say my logic is flawed when it is obviously not. It is clear you will accept only the answer you want to hear. If you have benefited from the program/degree and are happy with it great, but I think it is unwise to try to fool yourself and others. For most if not all potential students anything except an RA program is an unacceptable choice. I hope things work out for you.

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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

At the doctoral level they are considerably more affordable. (And less likely to come into play for admission to another school.)

(Just tossing that one out there.)

 

I'm not clear on how the *degree* opened your mind to new information and learning. If the CCHS curriculum-- the things you read, the discussions you participated in, the research you conducted-- served that purpose, then I agree: That IS what education is about, and you can be proud of your accomplishment.

But an education-- that can be gained anywhere. If it were only about education, then (to paraphrase a movie) the same thing could've been done for about $15.00 in overdue fines at a good library. A legitimate degree is a different story. A is legitimated by its acceptance, and by most accounts, a DETC degree (or worse, an unaccredited one) doesn't rate very highly on the "acceptance" scale."

An education does not equate to a valid, legitimate degree. If it did, most people over the age of 40 would have a long, long list of letters after their names.

 

There has been much discussion about the importance of establishing verifiable identity when making certain claims in our posts. Let me establish mine. I work for the City of Oakland, California. I entered municipal employment two years ago as Chief Development Officer for the City. All of this is easily verifiable by calling the City Manager's Office.

The City of Oakland has approximately 5,000 employees. This includes sworn individuals like Police and Fire Services personnel. We do not require that potential employees hold a degree from a regionally accredited school. We do require accreditation of degrees that are part of the core qualification for positions. Accreditation by a recognized accrediting agency is all that matters. Now, I don't intend to be anecdotal in my approach to this subject. However, the City is not alone in terms of our approach. Other municipalities in the region have the same guideline.

Here's the point: "Acceptability" of a degree cannot be limited to what other schools consider acceptable. All who pursue education are not interested in going on to earn advanced degrees. I consider DETC accredited degrees almost utilitarian in that they are appropriate for a good number of employers. That said, we can talk about the limitations of such degrees, but to label them "illegitimate" because there are some limitations on their acceptability in academic circles while they are functionally acceptable to many employers is (IMHO)unreasonable.

"Legitimacy" cannot be limmited to what regionally accredited schools deem acceptable. On what basis can you conceptually narrow the definition to the extent that you have?



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David F

 

David I am rather confused by your postion. By your own admition your Non-RA MBA is the most regretable decision of your career. You felt it a detriment to point of gaining a CSU Masters to replace it. I think most people want more than a BA/BS, probably a Masters as a minimum. While in some cases a DETC Degree may be passable an RA will for sure. Why would anyone, at this point, take such a major risk with such a major decision to save a few dollars. As has been discussed an RA Degree is available for approximately the same as a Legitimate Non-RA degree. The old qoute that comes to mind is Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten".

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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

You are correct that the MBA I completed is the the most regrettable effort in my career. What makes it regrettable is that it is not accredited at all. Let me succinctly make my position clear.

I don't believe one should pursue unaccredited degrees. There is no quality assurance. I believe the ideal degree to pursue is one that is regionally accredited. My reasoning is that it meets with the least obstacles -- perhaps none at all. As for my position on DETC degrees, I am only suggesting that I haven't seen evidence to indicate inherent inferiority. The fact that RA schools don't accept the credits from DETC schools does not clearly demonstrate inherent inferiority. When there is evidence, as Dr. Bear suggest in another post, that the product is significantly inferior (theses, test scores etc.), I will be willing to concede that DETC degrees as perhaps as worthless as my unaccredited MBA.

In the meantime though, while I would not pursue at DETC program (based on the fact that I have doctoral aspirations), I am only suggesting that we should point out the limitations to people. If they choose to pursue DETC degrees understanding those limitations, let's not tell them that their degrees are inferior. When we have empirical evidence, then we can make such assertions.

I hope I haven't confused you further on my position, Dave.

By the way, I was under the impression that DETC accredited schools cost significantly less the regionally accredted schools. If your assertion that the costs are similar, then given the limitations I spoke of in an earlier post, I would agree with you that the investment is best directed at a regionally accredited degree.

Regards,


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David F