DETC Doctorate

They already do.

 

Quite right, technically. But in practice, many RA schools will not accept degrees and credits from NA schools, including those accredited by DETC. The difference between policy and reality, I guess.

 

Rich, some might posit that for those not seeking full time employment in a traditional RA university, the acceptance by CHEA and USDOE of DETC schools to grant doctorates makes that something very close to moot.

If one were able to assure a path to a legitimately accredited doctoral program (DETC) from a DETC accredited Masters program, this will change the current rules of engagement significantly.

People get doctorates for far more reasons today than under the old but long standing model. NCA, Capella, Nova, TUI, Touro doctoral programs are filling a new market. There is no reason to think that a legitimately accredited degree from something other than an RA accredited institution would not also satisfy much of that market.

The rules are most definitely changing and one huge problem for DETC schools in the past was extreme limitations to upward movement to a legitimately accredited doctoral programs. A USDoE/CHEA approved DETC doctoral option most definitely will have impact.

As I say, teaching at traditional RA universities is no longer the only objective for many seeking the doctorate degree. If approved to grant doctorates, I think DETC schools may actually have less sense of pressure to accommodate the long standing RA resistance.

 

DETC Schools Offering Doctorates

Are there any DETC schools currently offering doctorates? If so, it would seem like they would be good candidates for the DETC Doctorate Pilot Program...should it come to be.

 

Re: DETC Schools Offering Doctorates

There are a couple of places that offer PhD's in areas such as Physical Therapy. I guess this is considered to be a professional doctorate and so it is allowed. Otherwise, I'm thinking about UNISA (I know, everyone is now saying, "Oh, but that's different...") But maybe it's not. Maybe someone at UNISA was really quite smart and they came to an agreement with someone at DETC who was willing to take a big risk (or maybe it was the other way around). Or maybe I'm waywayway out on a limb when I say (again) that UNISA could become the first university to offer DETC accredited doctorates.
Jack

 

To point number one, I think it remains an academic argument. Ask the graduates of DETC MS programs how negatively they have been impacted by their DETC degree and you will find the answer to be almost nil. There is a good study funded by the DETC that solicits just this sort of data. The lack of acceptance of DETC degrees in the workplace is far less than it is in RA academe.

To the second point, I do not believe I will see in my lifetime the full acceptance of DETC by the generality of RA. However, having said that, when DETC schools are equally recognized by CHEA and USDoE to award the ultimate terminal degree, I think most DETC shools will not waste much time caring about that lack of universal acceptance.

You argument keeps coming back to the current paradigm of doctoral graduates needing to be accepted by RA institutions because that is what doctoral candidates are seeking. I maintain consumers will not be selecting DETC doctoral programs because of their desire to enter into the RA mainstream. I think this is a straw man argument. It won't matter because the many DETC doctoral candidates will be seeking this level of academic achievement/recognition/knowledge opportunity for other than traditional reasons (e.g., seeking acceptance in the RA world of academe). They will be a legitimately awarded Doctor of Philosophy and able ti use that degree legally for whatever purpose is open to them and in line with their objectives for utilizing that path.

If the horse is not dead yet, let me take one last swing…it will only matter if DETC doctoral candidates seek acceptance by traditional RA academe, and I maintain many won’t care or need to.

Just my opinion.

 

I hope DETC will someday see its accreditation accepted on par with RA. But it isn't so, yet. Awarding doctorates will only make it more "not so." Fundamental changes are in order to make this better. Right now, DETC-accredited schools award second-rate bachelor's and master's degrees. Perhaps not always academically, but certainly--by definition--in terms of the acceptability of their accreditation. Awarding doctorates without changing this sitaution will only make it more obvious. That can't be good.

 

Rich, you offer reasonable and rational arguments in support of your positions. While you are factually correct, I take a little different spin on the validity of the practical application of those facts.

DETC schools attract consumers because of two things - perception and reality in meeting the needs of their customers. As you know, degreeinfo and AED have been around a long time. They are sounding boards for all things DL related. In the 10 years I have been involved in these two forums, I can count on one hand the number of folks seeking a podium upon which to voice their dissatisfaction with their DETC degree due to its limitations. The reality is that these legitimately accredited degrees do meet the needs of most of the consumers/learners that choose them. If not, as with many other producers of goods in the marketplace that fail to satisfy the market, these schools would go belly up.

In talking about the need for acceptance of a DETC accredited terminal degree, this is where we probably disagree most. While it is true that the business world will need to accept them in large degree, I maintain that your position that somehow RA academe will need to accept them for them to be validated is a non-issue. The same folks that are completing DETC masters programs and finding that these degrees satisfy their needs and objectives will likely be some of the same folks choosing a DETC doctorate. That they may not be accepted in RA academe simply won’t matter to many of them.

I very much understand the premise, and in the current model I would agree with much of it. But if the DETC is recognized to accredit doctoral programs, the rules will have changed so much as to make the current premise out of sync with the new model. The current premise and assumptions will have to change, as the new variables will dictate it.

 

DETC Value

Gentle Folks,

Currently I have an RA Bachelors and will have a RA Master next year. From a pure non academic view I see DETC as a value. IMHO RA schools cost a great deal more than a DETC schools, in most cases. When I see a school like Ashworth offering a MBA for under 5k and it’s accredited, even by DETC, that’s a great value. No, you won’t be CEO of Sony or Bank of America, but if you are in a smaller company I can see its value. I would definitely pursue a DETC Doctorate because I'm already established in my career path and I know the price will meet my budget. I'm sure if Ashworth offered a 10k Doctorates it would definitely have an audience. These are just my views of the subject.

s/

 

Re: DETC Value

Rich is most certainly correct that if you were to say your interest is to find employment with a traditional RA institution, a choice of a DETC doctorate would likely make that objective very difficult to achieve.

However, if this is not your objective, and particularly if you have accumulated the normal and expected professional accomplishments an adult learner would have, then as you point out, a DETC doctorate would likely meet many objectives.

I am not opining on the subjective aspects of the possibilities. I am only giving up to what seems to me to be well established precedence. There is a market and it will be appropriately exploited. I don't pretend to know if this is bad or good.

 

I want to thank Paul for demonstrating that this board, Degreeinfo, is filled with insightful people, and that two posters can disagree and yet engage eachother in that disagreement in a professional manner.

It appears that we agree there is a difference, but disagree on whether the difference will matter. (And whether it matters today.) Fair enough. Bear has for years advised people to be sure that the degree they pursue will meet their present and future needs. This is true whether the school in question is accredited by a regional or national association, or not accredited at all. I would offer that people who pursue degrees from DETC-accredited schools who find themselves happy with their degrees have done this due diligence, and they seem to be in the majority. Foreswearing employment at the many organizations (like mine) that will not accept their degrees is, likely, irrelevant to them.

Oh, and I really like DETC, BTW.

 

Yea, I know you do. The debate is a good one. I don't have any association with any DETC schools other than having completed an MS from Aspen University (fka ISIM) nearly10 years ago. Time flies.

I don't know that the RA DL doctoral market will be much affected by DETC accreditation of terminal degrees, but I do think the market will expand beyond the current audience if the DETC is successful in gaining CHEA/USDoE approval.

 

Rich: "I want to thank Paul for demonstrating that this board, Degreeinfo, is filled with insightful people, and that two posters can disagree and yet engage eachother in that disagreement in a professional manner."


For Rich & Paul:

Cehi: I applaud the civility that you and Paul have demonstrated or maintained in this on-going discussions. I like this so much. I have enjoyed both of your comments, although, my thinking resembles PaulC thought process. None of you inferred sarcasm in your points or comments. The absence of sarcasm allowed both you to focus entirely on the issue that is/was being discussed. Congratulations to both of you. I look forward to more civility in all discussions from all. Thank you.

 

While I know it is of no matter to anyone, I want to clarify just for the record. I should have said:

I have no "current" association with any DETC schools other than having completed an MS from Aspen University (fka ISIM) nearly10 years ago.

 

Hi Paul,

I think someone has asked you this before in a different thread, but I can't find it. Given that DETC schools don't offer doctoral degrees now, I would venture that there are quite a few students who, like you, earned a Master's at a DETC school, and then desire to earn a Ph.D., which, unless going offshore, means mainly turning to an RA school. Was your DETC MS degree an issue in the application process at Capella?

Cheers,
Adrienne

 

Rich,

with the acceptance of nationally accredited degrees into military programs I believe that small steps are being made for accreditors other than RA. I personally would like to see more practioner based and less research based offerings since I am more interested in application of learning. While reading the dialog between you and Paul I would like to offer that the government does not make (with limited exception) the distinction between NA and RA. Therefore I believe that DETC doctorates will find a market in this area, especially if priced accordingly. I for one am concerned with costs since any additional education on my part is more for me than any career effort. Therefore, If DETC shows up with some significant offerings I would be one that would consider a move from RA to DETC based upon costs. (assuming equivalent program)

Thanks to both you and Paul for sharing opinions.

 

I don't like the sound of that.

If MBAs aren't "respectful degrees" and "regular professionals" need doctorates, does that mean that MBAs are crappy, or is it an objection to universal higher education? I don't think that I agree with either alterative.

And in either case, rolling out more Ph.D.s doesn't seem to be the answer.

If the Ph.D.s are crappy, sold as a commodity intended to give job applicants a more exalted title and create competitive advantage, then you have only made a bad situation worse.

If the Ph.D.s aren't crappy, then they probably are overkill for most positions. Do most responsible positions really demand cutting-edge research expertise? Do we really want to collapse together the concepts 'professional' and 'research scholar'?

The social cost of credential-inflation is obvious. Job seekers who hope to remain competitive will have to spend years in inapproapriate preparations, taking classes and writing dissertations that they don't really need. It will cost big bucks, both to the students themselves and to the organizations who will be faced with inflated labor costs for the same work. It will create increased job dissatisfaction as advanced skills aren't utilized. It will accelerate the lowering of academic standards and exacerbate the cynicism about higher education that's already evident in some of these posts. And perhaps worst of all, it will divert attention from considering experience and practical accomplishments towards expecting ever-"higher" but increasingly meaningless paper qualifications.

Obviously DETC doctorates needn't imply all of that. But in order to avoid it, they will have to conform to expected doctoral standards. They will have to represent significant scholarly work. The institutions that produce these degrees in bulk will have to be judged by precisely the same standards as the existing RA research universities.

That's why I say that it's ass-backwards to simply rush into doctoral programs despite accepting that the current consumers of RA doctorates are unlikely to accept the degrees, and then go looking for new markets for separate but unequal doctoral degrees to conquer.

What DETC should be doing is working to increase the research and scholarship taking place at their schools. Start some research institutes. Get people publishing and presenting at conferences. Get DETC institutions involved in some research collaborations. Show a little leadership in a few research problems.

They need to make the people who really need doctoral level expertise willing to entertain the idea that a DETC graduate might just be the best person for the job.

 

Adrienne,

When I was seeking a Masters program, I wanted to find an accredited fully online program. In 1994, when I did my research and made my selection, I could find only Aspen (ISIM) that fit that bill. Admittedly, had there been an option to choose an RA program that fit those requirements at the time, I would likely have chosen an RA program. However, in retrospect, given my experiences, I am very glad that I made the choice available to me at the time and did not put off my education to wait for RA schools to catch up.

Aspen worked at producing an articulation agreement with Capella back in late 1998. Capella reviewed Aspen and the MS program and concluded it was satisfactory for satisfying the MS entrance requirement to the doctoral programs.

I entered Capella in December of 1998 and completed all requirements of my doctoral program in February of 2003.

 

Certainly.