University of the Free State (South Africa)

I stand corrected, UFS is considered second tier in SA. It seems that I did not notice the school in the link.

 

I have two additional points I'd like to make.

1) You are clearly focused on academic employment. This is not true for everyone, or even the majority, so your experience may not apply to all.
2) The idea that a DL degree might need to be "explained" to certain employers is not a new idea. Actually, it's one of the oldest ideas and much has been written on this board as well as other sites about the fact fact that even in today's world, where DL has become commonplace, people still need to explain wht they went that route.

To me it's no different than describing why I went to Wentworth rather than taking that athletic scholarship to Adelphi. Having to explain yourself to a potential employer should not be a deterrent to doing what you have to do. Most people who seek out low cost degree programs do so because they are driven to succeed yet don't have the resources to enter a (much) higher cost program. In the end they choose the cheaper alternative because they know that a PhD from UNISA (for example) is better than none at all. Should we be ashamed that we're not independently wealthy or silly enough to take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt? The phenomenon of academic snobery is well known and will probably exist forever but it should not deter people from pursuing their goals, especially if that false pinnacle (professorship) is not in their sights.

 

Your logic assumes that the person doesn't have cheap options at their local schools. The reality is that many people live in Urban areas where affordable options exist. Most state schools in the US and Canada have financial assistance that allow people to complete doctorates at almost no cost.

The issue many times is not money but convenience, people figure that they are already making good money and they don't want to bother to commute or spend 10 years to get a doctorate on a part time basis. The option exists but the effort required is considerable and might not be worth the time.

The issue with many people is that they are skeptical about your decision when you have local options that are affordable but yet the person decided to go all the way to Africa to get a PhD.

The SA option is convenient, I don't have to commute and don't need to bother to attend classes that require to look for parking, find time in my schedule etc. It is cheap unlike the many of the for profit options and also can be done within a reasonable time (5 years part time).

My opinion is that many think that you are taking a shortcut as you are not willing to do the work required to get one in a traditional American or Canadian school that requires commuting, attending seminars, taking comp exams and many might not buy the cost issue as many times affordable options exist.

I am not saying by any means that a SA PhD might be easier or less than any of your local options but the perception from the employer perspective might not be that you did it because you did not have any choice.

Again, it is very different if a SA citizen moves to the USA with a UFS degree than if an American in a comfortable job takes a SA PhD. The perception will not be the same.

Again, my opinion but I might be wrong about this.

 

Statistics Canada does not agreed with your opinion, "The fact that Western Europe ranked low compared to the United States and the United Kingdom suggests that the quality of education may not be the only factor involved in the assessment of foreign credentials and work experience in Canada"statcan.
Recognition of newcomers' foreign credentials and work experience

 

As I stated previously, I earned a B, M, and a professional doctoral degree here in the states. All were B/M on-campus degrees (although I did take a few courses via DL). The most economical PhD tuition I could find in the US was in the $35K range. My SA PhD tuition was approximately $6K.

 

This is a brilliant take. I don't think we have any data on this, but the possibility is very real. I don't recall ever seeing this particular point (prejudice against a person because they're presumed to be foreign because of their degree). Even though both aspects--the prejudice against the degree and the person--are terribly wrong, I can see where they might also be terribly real.

Wow. Something to be considered, eh?

I wonder if such prejudice would apply in the U.S. against someone with a doctorate from a first-rate British school? In Canada (again, regarding a doctorate from a British uni)?

 

According to Statcan, for the USA prejudice not so much, the UK not as good as the US, and the rest of Europe and the world are lumped together. There is some exception for new Zealand and Australia. The closer in culture you are to the HRM is the more easily the qualification is accepted. There was an example where an MBA form INSEAD had to proved it was a quality school. There are numerous more examples.

 

Ha ha - this discussion is really going on! In my view, doctorates come in only two flavors - done and not done. I'm glad mine is done, I have no regrets whatsoever about my degree being from SA, in fact it was a real treat to see the country and make friends there. The program was unique, and though I could have easily done a local Ed.D. or something similar, the programs here just are not that remarkable - it would have been the boring choice. I could still be weighing the merits of different schools, but I'm glad I chose a school I liked, got started and got finished. I explain nothing!

 

There's a paradox to be experienced there....

 

I would argue that the enormous risk of getting your credential from a place that might have low recognition for your target employment actually has a higher opportunity cost.
If I work 20 hrs a week during 5 years to get my PhD from a SA school just to find out that I cannot use it for my career goals, this would have cost me about 20x52x20x5 = 100K (assuming you make at least $20 dlls an hour).
It would be a lot cheaper to pay the 35K and do it at a local school part time considering that there is a high chance that it will be accepted for local employment and you might at least be able to make your money back.

My point is that a low tuition fee is not always the answer to your prayers. Risk of not being able to use the credential should be taken into consideration.

 

I guess I was lucky because I wanted a doctorate specifically in business leadership, and was quite stubborn about that. That narrowed it down to relatively few schools. And I genuinely liked what I saw at the Graduate School of Business Leadership at Unisa. The Unisa DBL was perfectly on-target for me and is well-respected. They only produce one or two a year, so it is quite unique. And not easy! But I take your points. I'm getting toward the end of my career, and am better known for other things I have done, so there wasn't a lot riding on my choice of institution. I guess my point is that it really wasn't a compromise choice for me - it was in fact exactly what I wanted!

 

With three US degrees and one SA degree, I should only be discriminated against as being 1/4 immigrant.

Or, with one US doctorate and one SA doctorate, worst case scenario, I should only be seen as 1/2 immigrant.

Since my great-grandfather migrated from Scotland to the US when he was five years old, I can live with that.

 

I guess (as he slowly wends his way toward coherence...) that the school you choose should be exactly what you are hoping for, tempered with what is possible for you. Hopefully you end up proud of whatever you choose.

 

As a comparison, US Second tier schools are the following: (nothing to be ashamed of)

Northwestern and Notre Dame are generally considered second-tier colleges with admission rates of 27 percent and 29 percent, respectively, but many students who apply to these schools as backups are rejected even though they have records similar to those of students admitted to the Ivy League. With the huge increase in outstanding international applicants at top colleges, second-tier colleges are now considered “the new Ivies.”

Most estimates are that 30 to 40 universities like Northwestern and Notre Dame actually benefit by admitting students turned down from schools like Harvard and Princeton because the academic records of these students have helped them climb in the overall rankings.

Many students are shocked when they are rejected or waitlisted by a second-tier college. Students who may not get admitted to Northwestern, Notre Dame, NYU, Washington University in St. Louis, Rice, Emory or Georgetown are grateful that they picked backup colleges where admission is all but assured."

Second-tier-colleges-

 

May be you are already in the job you want and just wanted the credential to learn about business leadership and maybe be able to teach on the side. IF this is the case, the risk is low as chances are that a DBL from UNISA or from your average local school won't make a difference.

The other extreme would be someone who is betting at this degree to be able to land a VP position, in this case I would think that the risk is high and maybe not the best option.

 

This thread seems to have evolved into an ad hominem attack on the University of the Free State. Frankly, all of the scurrilous attacks on the reputation of the school may cause some US students to not apply there, but guess what? This is a South African school mainly for South Africans, they are not set up for an influx of US students.

Also, although there is a crime problem, South Africa is a modern country. Some students (like me) choose to attend a ZA or UK or AT school because the dissertation-only program appeals to them after being ABD somewhere else. I have sunk costs and time.

Some students (like me again) choose to minimize costs after throwing away money at a third or fourth tier distance learning university, and walking away with nothing.

I never expected ZA universities to be easy, and USF is not. If anything, they are far more rigorous than what I have experienced previously. I am gratified to have been accepted, and and proud to be affiliated with them, much more so than with my previous online university. No more trash talking about the UFS!! Go, Kovsies!!

 

Of course, some of us have that problem regardless of where our degrees originate. Despite the "melting pot" myth in the USA, if your name is just a little too different then assumptions begin to be made and some are surprised to learn that you can actually speak English fluently.