University of the Free State (South Africa)

I meant to say, you were NOT directing that statement at me RFValve. Sorry...LOL

 

I did not intent to bash UNISA or other school, I just mentioned that some people have the perception that a research degree is easier but it is not the case. It is actually harder as you are on your own and it is all or nothing as you don't have milestones.

Few people come here and feel that they can finish a research PhD degree in a year as they think is just writing an essay and you get a degree.

However, my point is that you should be ready to explain your options as there is the risk that some people might be skeptical.

In your case, it seems that you are an established academic that just need the PhD for promotion. People around you know you and respect you, they would not think negative about this and they see that you are making an effort to improve yourself and perhaps there are not local options available and this was the only way to achieve the PhD.

Bottom line, every person is different and every one has different needs. There are risks associated with your options that you need to consider them before you enroll. A PhD from UNISA might work for some cases but not for all career goals that might benefit from doctoral level education.

The OP in question might be working at a school that offers a PhD in his field of choice and he might be getting financial support for this (Most schools offer tuition support for studies at the school of employment). It might not look good in his resume if he had all the options to do the degree locally but decided to go all the way to SA to do his PhD. Again, it doesn't mean that it will harm him but it just looks like the person went there for the wrong reasons as there were options available to him at the local school for free so the price wouldn't really be a justfication.

 

Agreed. I figured I would chime in on the UNISA side of things. I think when folks see that UNISA is not just a "cheap" doctoral program, then that allows them to see the whole picture. It took me almost two years to get into the program ( this is just history, I cannot speak for other programs within UNISA). I can also say that Dr. Michael Esselen has worked wonders for me. I still pay my tuition through him. He expedites it rather quickly. I did not mean to hijack the thread. LOL.

 

UNISA is easier? That's news to me. Who says?

Oh, I doubt it. South African universities are held in pretty good regard. I think it would be a stretch for someone to be simultaneously (a) clued in to the political and cultural situation in SA and (b) clueless regarding the quality of its universities. Just my opinion.

You absolutely do not know this. And with DL programs offered everywhere, people are earning degrees all the time from schools they never lived and worked near.

 

Of course not. The U.S. has more than 4,000 degree-granting tertiary institutions, the vast majority of which are not "first-tier."

No.

 

Fair enough.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is with choosing a school based upon the cost. Can you explain?

 

I did not say that Kizmet, RFValve did...I was just bolding his statement



RFValve
RFValve is offline Registered User

Join Date
Jun 2001
Posts
3,489

Quote Originally Posted by Rich Douglas View Post
It can also be a wonderful opportunity to talk about your learning, your experiences, your research. I've found that people are truly curious (once they get past the "how'd you do it" question) about your experiences at a foreign school.
In general, a foreign degree can be seen as positive thing if the school in question can be justified as a good option for a chosen field.

My problem with UFS, UNISA, etc is that it seems that people want to go there mainly because the price and the perception that a research degree is easier. This is based on the comments that some students made for their reasons to want to go there.

 

Cost should not be the only factor when deciding a program. I am putting my self on the shoes of someone that is in front of a hiring committee that is questioning my SA PhD, I know if I said that I decided to go there mainly because it was cheap, this wouldn't be a strong reason to justify it.
I would need to convince the hiring committee that I went there because a top researcher in my field of interest was part of the faculty or because that particular school is well regarded in a particular field.

I am telling this because I had to defend my decision to do an Australian doctorate many times. People were skeptical of my degree and my last job offer was upon verification of authenticity of my University and degree. Few people of the hiring committee thought that my qualification could have been fake given my argument that I did it in external mode.

I know people in the forum are very enthusiastic about SA degrees but there are risks associated with this decision. As a person that had to suffer from criticism and skepticism because my Australian doctorate, I know it is not easy to fight it.

 

I don't remember anyone saying that cost is the ONLY factor, do you? At the same time, I don't mind saying that cost plays a major role in virtually everything I do. It relates to the town where I live (taxes), it relates to the house I buy, it relates to the car I buy, it relates to the stores where I shop. Now is it the ONLY factor in my decisions on these matters? Of course not. I never said that and neither did anyone else.

 

I appreciate your candor and for sharing your experience.

 

Sure, the ones who talk about it say that. They see the low tuition for UNISA and think it's cheap. Well, it ain't. Tuition, fees, hiring a local (your country and specialty) advisor, meetings (your local and possibly your UNISA one, too), research expenses, travel, course fees and other expenses to take subjects you need work in, etc. (The posters here doing it can certainly elaborate more accurately than can I.)

It's like "stone soup." The tuition is nothing; it's the extras that'll kill ya.

There's a handful of us who've done a DL doctorate while posting here. There's another in the midst of doing theirs. Then there's a whole lot of other people taking a look. For them, many want: cheap, easy, fast, no residencies, no dissertation, or some combination therein. What they don't realize is that even if you find the miracle program you seek, it is still a damn hard thing to do. My experience has been that if you're already looking to cut out the difficult stuff, you won't be around for the finish. (Phinish?) The ones actually doing it don't talk of such things for they don't matter--the work and the research does.

 

Once upon a time I thought about doing a second Bachelors in Math from UNISA. The Bachelors degree requires final exams and all the exams in my general area are given at the embassy in NYC. So I'd have to take time off from work, catch the shuttle to NY, take the test and then maybe have to stay overnight/maybe take the redeye flight back same day. Accomodations, meals, lost wages, etc. I decided that it would be far easier (and maybe marginally more expensive) to go domestic.

 

I understand it from a different perspective. I have my undergraduate degree from Excelsior College which has never been questioned when I have applied to do postgrad degrees in Australia. It was, however, questioned by colleagues and others who thought it must be one of those "US degree mills", without them ever knowing anything about US education. Any person who questioned it generally had not achieved beyond bacculareate level in academia. Postgrad students or graduates never did. Any questioning stopped when I graduated with Masters Degrees from an Australian university.

I have noticed also that, although the differential in universities is not as disparate as in the U.S., people here do not want to engage with a university from interstate if they can avoid it. This occurs even when they want to do the course by distance learning. It is interesting because, here, there is no stigma about distance learning and there would never be any acknowledgement on your diploma that it was achieved by distance learning. It may actually go in your favour if it was known that you did the degree by distance learning because of the level of commitment needed. The "bar" on quality is not dropped for distance learning, and this country has had a very long history with it.

I think the problem is the narrow focus on anything by some people. They cannot stretch their thought beyond a certain piece of geography. It challenges their security and comfort levels. Perhaps the "flat earth" thinking has its origins in that. There is probably a thesis there somewhere.

 

After earning a regionally accredited professional doctorate here in the states, followed by a research doctorate (PhD) via a South African institution, I can assure you the latter was no walk in the park. Those who perceive the SA research degree to be a kinder gentler version of the PhD are misinformed.

 

Most people go to local schools or move to another province or country to continue studies. It is not quite common to pursue PhDs in country while living in another country.

In my search for academic work, I lost few jobs because the DL factor. One University was ready to pay me for a trip for an interview, the person conducting the phone interview then realized that I had a job in Canada while doing the doctorate in Australia. The person asked me for an explanation and I mentioned that I completed the degree in external mode, next I got an email telling me that the interview was cancelled because the committee thought I did not have enough research publications when this was never an issue before.

Other issues have been the lack of accreditation (AACSB) and designation (DBA instead of PhD. In one phone interview, the professor interviewing me was disappointed to hear DBA instead of PhD, I was not sure if this was the reason for not hiring me but the DBA designation did not help. Accreditation is also an issue for some schools.

Getting a doctorate is a lot of work, I am sure doing one from UFS requires a lot of work and effort. The problem is not that the degree itself is substandard but the general perception of the public because ignorance or because skepticism might be that the degree is not in pair with other options and just won't bother to do the research as there are always applicants with easier to verify credentials.

 

Remember folks, I did not say this. RFValve did. You all are using the bold I quoted from him.

 

Wow! two doctorates! Some people have approached the forum thinking that a research PhD (not just one from SA) can be done in a year because there is no course work, nor comp examination, etc.
These programs are designed to be finished in 3 years full time or 5 years part time. There are some exceptional people that finish them in 2 years.

However, in general, these programs are a bit shorter than the American and Canadian PhDs that normally take between 4 to 5 years full time and for this reason many academics low down at them in the US or Canada.

There is also the problem with meeting some of the accreditation requiremens when applying for faculty positions in the US, most schools would want to see at least 18 graduate credits of courses in the field of expertise and most of these programs do not have course work so they make it very hard for someone to qualify for a teaching position in the US. Some British schools don't even provide transcripts as it is only one dissertation. This might not be an issue for people that have already enough courses at the master's level.

I think a second doctorate (PhD) on top of a professional doctorate (DBA) might be a good example where a SA PhD might help. Let's say that you feel that a DBA hinders you for some positions that might require a more research focus, then the PhD credential might help and this shows that you are also capable of doing theoretical research. If your first doctorate comes from a school with good reputation, the second doctorate might be perceived as an effort to expand your research networks to international levels. Many people have 2nd, 3rd or 4th doctorates from foreign schools that granted them degrees based on their exceptional performance.

 

It is not the qualification. It is being an immigrant. My take, as a citizen if you have a foreign Phd, then you are mistakenly file in the immigrant pool or perceived to be an immigrant. It is not the degree. It is old fashion prejudice. Unemployment rate for immigrants who are more qualified than population is over 14% versus under 7% for the population.
In 2008, 42% of immigrant workers aged 25 to 54 had a higher level of education for their job than what was normally required, while 28% of Canadian-born workers were similarly over-qualified. Over-qualification was particularly prevalent among university-educated immigrants who landed within five years before the survey. Two-thirds worked in occupations that usually required at most a college education or apprenticeship(statcan).

 

I have read few articles about this issue, some argue that is prejudice and some argue that is the lack of credibility of foreign credentials from less developed nations. My take is that is the second reason. At least in Canada, most of the graduate schools are dominated by immigrants that do quite well after graduation so the issue of bias against nationality doesn't hold when most PhDs in Engineering and Sciences are foreign born.

The issue in my opinion is that foreign education from less developed countries is substandard at the eyes of a lot of people. This bias is hard to fight unless you have a resume with publications from top journals.

As a general rule, most schools only consider people with degrees from Western Europe, Canada, USA and Australia. At least that has been my experience.
There are not many people with South African degrees teaching as full time faculty at Canadian schools. The few ones that are here and there, are normally graduates of top South African schools and not bottom ones as the ones discussed here.

According to the link below, UNISA or UFS are not even considered second tier schools in SA.

Rankings of universities in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I once worked with a person with a PhD from U. Pretoria that was trying to secure a tenure track in Canada but couldn't after several years. She told me that PhDs from U of Pretoria are very rigorous as it took here almost 10 years to get hers after her M.Sc (She was full time faculty at a University in SA).

The problem is not that she was not qualified but the problem is that the market is saturated with people with degrees from Canadian, American and European schools so she was never considered due to fierce competition.

I know people are very enthusiastic about getting PhDs from SA in this forum, but we have to be careful about expectations from these programs as we have discussed before.