Trinity Newburgh drops PHD's

BLD

I actually thought about American as well since I understood one could have a concentration in Biblical Studies. But the title "Doctor of Ministry" would just not fit me as I have not a minister's heart. So Im shooting for Unizul's ThD now.

 

Greetings BLD,

Thanks for sharing your actual experiences with Trinity.
Could you share what specifically about your two courses was substandard.

I agree the Masters Divinity School is really sickening and ought to be a source of embarassment for a school that claims legitmacy. Maybe MDS is a cash cow??

North

 

Cash Cow or Golden Calf?

North

I need a Doctor (to be) of Ministry to by the virtue of that degree minister to me and alleviate the struggle I'm having over Trinity. This burden is caused by the question: If even 1/2 of what Trinity is accused of is true then how can we account for the fact that many well known leaders of the Christian faith support Trinity?


The faculty certainly represent sound schools: Dallas, Westminster and so forth. They go right along teaching. They encourage students to remain at Trinity. They make cassettes and guides for Trinity to use. Why? How can they if Trinity is deceitful and worthless academically?Understand now, I'm not arguing in defense, I am just so confused. Do they "walk into" their Trinity duties only after shedding their Christian conscience ,?then ? Is the (supposed) power of the Christian faith to elicit the best of ethics impotent against these Trinity wiles that school stands accused of? Do the studies and demands of doctorates in Christianity cause degree holders blindness to major moral flaws if even 1/2 of these accusations are true?

And what of those testifiers to Trinity's worth? The founder of Luther Rice Seminary, Pres Emeritus of World Vision, Stephen Olford, himself a third witness! I personally emailed Clark, the Dean at Calvary Bible College who replied "Trinity is a quality institution" Help me out..explain!

Are these all worshipper's of the golden calf??

 

Re: Cash Cow or Golden Calf?

Personally, I do not know. Masters Divinity School is a joke. Six courses will get you the Doctor of Practical Ministry. I cannot explain MDS from a school which purports legitimacy.

As for the issue of people vouching for a school, graduates obviously have an investment, others may prepare courses and really not know the full workings of an institution.

As for what Trinity has been accused of, I have not taken classes and cannot say anything negative. Other than the one case of plagarism, there has not been much posted about why it is considered sub-standard. I really would like some concrete examples. For instance when somone talked about Cal Coast they mentioned low requirements in terms of expected work etc for the MBA (whatever it was, it was specific). I would like some Trinity examples, for instance did their doctoral classes only require a 7 page research paper, etc. I agree the Liverpool thing was not what it was being touted as. Nonetheless, even if it was for money, Uof Liverpool apparently sent evaluation teams out and regularly evaluated Trinity's programs and found them good enough to put their stamp on. The Liverpool thing is not pushed anymore so I do not know what happened to it. I think graduates wrongly represented it as "A collaborate doctorate between the University of Liverpool and Trinity" (etc) when it was not.

North

 

North

I probably shouldn't have named you as a hoped for respondant, sorry. You were good to take the time to answer. May I share with you and whoever might be interested an example of the basic coursework:

Systematic Theology I(3 units) is "taught" by Ralph Gore. Dr Gore has his PhD from Westminster and is prof at Erskine Seminary. It is his voice on the cassettes. I took Syst theol at Western and would rate the content of Gores tapes right along with the MDiv courses by Cook (now retired ) and Gerry Breshers. So I listened to those tapes, took notes, and passed exam on them. For the same class I was required to read and be prepared to be tested on five related texts. Then I wrote three papers of about 25 pages each. As an example one was on the essentiation of the Son. A principal part of this was a lexical study of "monogenes" in the Septuagint (in Greek) and the Apocrypha. Hebrew was also less frequently employed. In another paper I compared a ThM thesisfrom Trinity Evang Div School with Erickson and Barth on the issue of the Relational Subordination of the Son.

I think my work at Trinity compares well with RA grad work. But I don't know if all put into it what I did, but it was no handout of a grade to me!

Sorry again for nailing you...I just face an ethical problem I cannot fathom! I worry about the consequences of it on my faith.

 

So far I am not seeing a problem with your Systematic Theology class in terms of work issues.

Maybe someone else will share their experience. I am hoping that BLD might.

Trinity seems to have a well developed system, it has two real campuses. I believe the one in Albuquerque has a museum and ampitheatre. They could hold residential sessions easily and duplicate what Capella, Walden, and others are doing.

North

 

Hi,
I decided to look through my Trinity file folder to see what I could find in the syllabi. Unfortunately, I either threw them away or misplaced them. In general terms these are some of the complaints I had:

- I was enrolled in the Ph.D. in Biblical Studies program. The cassette tapes I received were the same ones a student in the Associates degree program received. In fact, they use the exact same course content for every single degree program. In other words, if you sign up for Bible 101 or Bible 801, you get the exact same lectures. That alone is enough to label Trinity a joke. The only difference between degree programs is the number and length of assignments for the class.

- As I said before, my "professor" could not even properly pronounce Greek words. It was obvious that he was reading everything off of a manuscript and did not understand what it was he was reading.

- The reading and writing requirements were not even close to graduate level. As I said, I no longer have the syllabi, but I very clearly remember that I was shocked at how much less was required for a Ph.D than for the courses I took at an accredited school for a Bachelor's degree. In addition, the requirements did not require any original thinking, just a restating of what was heard on the tapes. In fact, when I first enrolled I called to ask about what was expected. I was told to simply reword what I heard in the lectures and what I read in the required reading.

One of the main problems I had was with the Liverpool accreditation. Even though I was suspicious from the start, I convinced myself that the Liverpool accredition was legit. Looking back I can't believe I fell for this blatant deception. When I enrolled I was given an option to have my degree "accredited" or not. For $250 your degree will be "accredited" by U of L. If you didn't send in the "accreditation fee" the courses would all be exactly the same but your degree would not be "accredited". I shamefully admit that I sent in the fee. Below I quote directly from the promo piece they sent me on why a prospective student should choose the "accredited" option:

Begin Quote
Choosing the Accreditation Option Will Benefit You in the Following Ways:
- Your Trinity degree program will be accredited by one of the most prestigious universities in the world, the University of Liverpool;
- Immediately following Registration, you will receive a personalized accreditation certificate from the University of Liverpool (I did receive this -- it was printed on a cheap color ink jet printer on cream colored copy paper).
- Your Trinity degree will display the University Crest, along with the words "Accredited by the University of Liverpool, England;"
- You can attend graduation ceremonies on the campus of the University of Liverpool to receive your Trinity degree;
- You will have the opportunity to transfer your Trinity degree and study for an additional degree at the University of Liverpool.
Return the Accreditation Request Form and your degree will bear the same mark of distinction as that of eight Nobel Prize Winners
End Quote

Trinity has been advertising their "accreditation" with U of L for a number of years now. In addition they have defended this "accreditation" vigorously in many different forums. Why all of a sudden are they dropping it if it has such validity? Have they admitted that they were deceiving students all along? If not, how can anyone trust them now?

On another note, I once called Trinity's Newburgh offices to ask about the Master's Divinity School connection. The phone was answered -- "Trinity, how can I help you". I asked about the connection with MDS. I was told that there was no connection between the two schools, even though the schools shared faculty, addresses, etc... I immediately dialed the number for MDS after hanging up with Trinity. The phone was answered -- "Trinity, how can I help you". It was the exact same woman answering the phone for both "schools"!!!

What else do I need to say to convince everyone? The school was a joke, is a joke, and will most likely always be a joke. If I had a degree from Trinity I would rip it up and take it off of my resume.

BLD

 

I cannot argue with the majority of complaints re Trinity. What BLD quoted as to the arrangement with Liverpool is exactly right. I also know the president at "Masters" is connected to Trinity. And too some teachers attend to both schools. Also it is true that the undergrad and grad use some identical cassettes.The only difference my experience has been is the quality of work I thought I did while there and my take on the level of the lectures on the cassettes..as said these seemed to be about first year MDiv in terms of the issues covered.

BLD complains that the "prof" was reading his lecture and that the "prof"didn't understand its contents and that also the "prof" mispronounced Greek words. I'm not sure which tapes BLD used. However, were I taping lectures I would read them also. As for the speakers not understanding what they were talking about I only had profs with accredited doctorates on tapes and in the grading of my submissions. I think they know their topics. As for the inept pronounciation, beyond the mentioned accredited doctorates held by the speakers on at least my cassettes (which to me should imply competency in pronounciation), at times my cassette profs had particular qualifications in linguistics. In Christology, eg, the supervising prof, a Dr. Clutter, has his PhD from Dallas and has been a Seminary dean elsewhere(Covenant?). But the cassettes used were by Zodhiates whose native language, I think, is Greek. In that particular class I responded in writing to many lecture points investigating and submitting responses to topics concerning exegetics of John's Prologue: textual, syntactical,lexical,contextual issues. For OT Theology, the Prof is a man who has his THD from Concordia in Old Testament. He pronounces his Hebrew well, I'd suppose.

This to me was good, these studies. But I cannot deny the bad and the ugly. And this weighs heavily on me. I often struggle to do the good. I rarely choose to be bad to others and to be ugly in the eyes of the One most important to me. But it seems as though Trinity has a dark side and has chosen to do and be thus. And this I cannot understand!

 

Trinity and MDS

It appears that Trinity is making an effort to align its degree programs to achieve some type of recognized accreditation:

1. Less emphasis on the Liverpool "accreditation."
2. Dropping the Ph.D./Th.D. programs
3. Requiring all future faculty to have RA degrees

Inside sources have stated that it is NCA accreditation which is being sought.

The Master's Divinity School connection is really troubling. As has been stated, one can obtain a Doctor of Practical Ministry degree by completing six courses--no dissertation/major writing project. MDS originally called their programs "Diploma" programs, i.e., one would have a Doctor of Practical Ministry diploma. In phone conversation I asked a MDS rep if those who obtained this "diploma" could use the title "Dr.," to which he replied in the affirmative. I now notice the "Diploma" reference has been dropped and the title "Degree" is being used.

Perhaps I am one of the few who is frustrated by such tactics, but of all people, those in ministry should manifest high ethical standards. If MDS stood for Medical Doctor School, and someone obtained the MD from there and began practicing medicine, everyone would cry FOUL! Part of the problem is with MDS, yet some of the fault lies with many in ministry who see "institutions" such as this as a means to a quick and easy degree--especially the doctorate.

 

Beheading the Baptist

Old John was quite a boy with his message of repentance to even the religious leaders. But Herod managed to silence him!

About four months ago there appeared on the Trinity T Delta Forum a series of posts by a former student. His complaint was that he had taken Trinity's accreditation statement at face value along with claims of Trinity's staff about internationally known and accepted degrees. So this one paid his (thousands) of dollars , put in his time, and did the work. Then he took his Trinity BA to the doorsteps of various RA schools but found the doors closed to him. He didn't put it this way, but I will--it is hard enough to be a good minister without that which is supposed to enable you to be, to instead compound the difficulty! But this one did come to that forum with a message. "Trinity is not accredited and its degrees are not generally accepted." This he repeatedly posted in various ways.

For about a week he did. I and some email pals, all students there, engaged this one in discussion. Then to my surprise in front of my eyes while I viewed some of these, the messages blipped, faded, vanished! The "prophet" was silenced!

Herod ran the Kingdom and Trinity runs the forum. Each protected themselves.

 

Thanks for posting BLD.

Your experiences do not sound promising in terms of quality. Sounds like you made the right choice to discontinue. When Trinity posted the U of Liverpool graduation ceremony it did not appear that Trinity grads particated in the U of Liverpool ceremony but got to use a room at the university for a Trinity graduation. I feel bad for Trinity grads trying to grasp at straws and promote their degree as *Trinity in cooperation with the University of Liverpool* or as a *collaberative degree*. If the U of L connection had meant anything Trinity students would have been allowed the option of doing Trinity coursework for a University of Liverpool degree.

Let me add something to what Russell posted. The web site for MDS lists one of their faculty with the DPM (what was a non degree but is now a degree) and they refer to him as "Dr", so no question in line with what Russell found that they are using that as a doctorate. Whip yourself out six courses and *walla*. How someone could run around calling themselves *Dr* is amazing. Also amazing is that a school purporting to be legit and offering quality education, could run a MDS out of their offices ($$$$$$$).

North

 

According to the very nice lady that answered the phone at North Central Association of Schools and Colleges, Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary is in applicant status. No date for site visitation has beeen set. They are currently corresponding. That is all she can say.


My prediction: Trinity will get it.

Why: Pretty solid faculty, lots of students, experience writing self studies because of Liverpoool, two very nice physical plants, obvious willingness to shape their programs to please NCA, and LOTS OF MONEY.

Actually, I hope they do; it would be nice to have reasonably affordable entirely distance RA Christian degrees at the doctoral level available without going overseas. Also, I think Trinity willl further upgrade their studies.

Blessings

 

Good luck to them. I too think they may have a good shot. They know how to make things look good and they do have two good physical plants.

Another accredited DL option is not a bad thing (but guys....fellas....ditch MDS for crying out loud).

North