Trinity Newburgh drops PHD's

Now I have an email from Anthony Tanjoco ,a helpful "academic advisor", at Trinity:

"Hello Bill,
The new 2002 Trinity Catalog does not affect current students' degree programs, especially the PhDs. You will remain under and with your current degree program, unless you withdraw from the degree program, etc."

My question to Anthony had been, if Trinity has gone from PhDs to D.A.s, would this affect those in the former program.

So Robert and North are right..still it was fun!

 

Re: TTS Docs

I would not hold your breath. I never did get an official acceptance letter just the information from Professor Song as my application made it's way through the process.

North

 

why D.A.'s not PhD's??

According to Anthony T.(academic advisor) the reason Trinity switched is that the D.A. "better serves Trinity's mission and better serves the type of school Trinity is." Anthony also proffers to Trinity's concerned students that the D.A. is a common degree given by "22-25 major schools in the USA." The purpose of the switch is NOT to align with potential accreditors, Anthony explains.

North, I won't hold my breath. But I've been getting with my "maturity" an impatience. I want a doctorate before senilty sets in. I do my degrees in "spurts" and I think my "spurts" are getting shorter!

 

Re: why D.A.'s not PhD's??

While the Doctor of Arts & Doctor of Religious Education are indeed legitimate degrees offered by RA institutions, it seems unusual that Trinity would (at this particular time) drop all Ph.D./Th.D. programs in favor of the DA/DRE format.

 

Re: Re: why D.A.'s not PhD's??

I agree Russell. You do not drop the PhD/ThD (creme de la creme degrees) for legitimate but lesser known nomenclature. D.A. is indeed legit (I did a yahoo search when someone indicated that ACCS may have been considering turning one of their D.Min programs into a Doctor of Arts degree. This did not turn out to be the case as far as I know). I would gladly pursue a Doctor of Arts degree but would I trade a Ph.D. for one (retorical question).

It will be interesting to see what happens. It may well be for the benefit of RA's in terms of feeling that it might be easier to get approved or it may be for TRACS. I guess only time will tell.

North

 

Russell

Not only does the timing of this changeover seem strangely coincidental to the whoopla over possible NCA connection, to me the D.A itself seems an unusual seminary offering.

Perhaps you know of one other USA seminary which gives D.A.s? I am unaware of any!The description of it by the seminary rep is that it contrasts to the PhD as the latter focuses on languages and research.

Immediately two inconsistencies seem apparant:
(1) The Trinity PhD (2001 catalogue) in theology requires NO languages!
(2) The D.A. is yet said to be a "teaching" degree(as the PhD)
As both are for teaching and neither require languages (at Trinity, ie the one in theology) why then make a fuss and a flap by a change over unless someone Trinity wishes to do business with is making such a mandate?

 

Absolutely Bill. As I said above you do not swtich from a Ph.D offering to a D.A. without some important necessity. The title *Ph.D* is considered the pinacle in most fields. That is not to say that DBA's. D.Min's, & EdD's are not valuable or desirable degrees but most would rather have the Ph.D. title even if the coursework was the same.

I do not know of any seminaries offering the D.A. A yahoo search turned up a number of references such as D.A. in math. It is indeed legit.

North

 

The history department of the University of North Dakota, here in Grand Forks, offers the DA in history, instead of the PhD. They also emphasize that it is a teaching degree. By this they mean that the primary objective of the degree is to prepare doctoral-level teachers of history. Of course, the degree entails research. However, there is considerably less of a research emphasis than in a PhD program. Instead, the emphasis lies on the completion of a significant chunk of teaching practicum. So, simply stated, the DA is not intended to produce researchers of the highest calibre in a given discipline, but teachers of the highest calibre in a given discipline.

Anyhow, that's my take.

Cory

 

The purpose of UND's DA program in history is explained at the following location:

http://www.und.edu/dept/grad/depts/hist/


Cory

 

My 300th post!

The DA does seem like a very odd degree for a seminary to be offering. You all are quite correct in stating that no seminary anywhere offers such a degree.

Cory

 

Re: My 300th post!

I sent away for information from Trinity. I received a video, some popcorn along with a faux movie ticket with Admissions Counselor info and a flyer.

Two things stand out. First, no mention of the University of Liverpool on the written info. The second is that they defintely now offer 3 doctoral programs at Trinity. The College of the Bible are undergradaute. The seminary has the graduate programs. The doctorates are: Doctor of Religious Studies, Doctor of Arts, and Doctor of Ministry.

I wish them well in their pursuit of accreditation. They have the physical plant in 2 separate locations (Indiana & New Mexico) to handle even residencies were they to be required.

In the past I have had concerns about the appalling Masters Divinity School (offering non degree degrees) and I know there were concerns with regard to an issue of plagarism. At one poiint some were promising a major expose on the aed forum of Trinity. That expose never materialized to the best of my knowledge and so I do not remember anything negative & substantial being said regarding their program as it relates to the College & Seminary.

North

 

nothing negative???

North

Trinity Seminary has been slapped around pretty well on this forum. I, myself, have suggested that Trinity's doc work had some flaws even though it also has(had) potentially challenging requisites as well. At least in the old catalogue the ThM was off ATS standards in length and the Phd in Theology required no languages. Even the "modest" MDiv( Ats accredited) requires both Hebrew and Greek. But one could proceed from Ma in Theology-PhD at Trinity and not know a yod from a gamma. Research then becomes tough in this discipline. Also, all levels shared the same cassettes (lectures). Finally, interaction between profs and students was inconsequential in my experience which could be remedied by the use of prof probing of responses by students.

But these were the milder "attacks." Were one to search the forum record, one would find therein the administrators of Trinity supposedly getting wealthy off Trinity's profits. And Trinity would not survive IRS scrutinty. And Trinity deceives in advertising(and I would admit it confuses, perhaps misled). And Trinity's connection with Liverpool a mere sham it was said. And much doubt that Trinity ever would be accredited oft was expressed.

Now it seems to me that either Trinity is doing much revamping to just fool prospective students with the lure of possible accreditation of some sort in the foreseeable future, or Trinity is fooling itself and that regardless of all these changes accreditation will ever be beyond its grasp or, Trinity is doggone serious and has a real chance!I can't believe the first even though I admit Trinity may have been somewhat misleading in the past. And the second to me is doubtful because I think Trinity has some pretty sharp leadership.

So while the prophetic utterance is not my gig or gift, the little that I know in comparison with all you "senior members" upon reflection leads me to the hunch that accreditation of some sort is on Trinity's horizon. Were that to happen our memory of all those negatives perhaps even more will fade away?

 

Degree Mill All the Way

Trinity was, is, and will most likely always be a degree mill. Their requirements are substandard (that's being generous), they have spent a lot of time and advertising lying about their accreditation status with U of L, and they still, still, still, run the Masters Divinity School sham! (www.mdivs.edu).

BLD

 

BLD

So if Trinity does gain accreditation is it still a mill?

Would you care to claim that impossible?

Is your mouth broad enough to contain your foot?

 

Bill,
If you'll notice I said it "most likely" will always be a mill. If Trinity receives RA I would question whether that particular Accreditor was legit!! I enrolled at Trinity, received their ridiculous cassette courses, listened to a few and realized that the professor couldn't even properly pronounce the Greek words that he was reading out of a theology book.

Unless a completely radical change takes place, Trinity will remain a deceptive counterfeit that is ripping people off right and left.

I'm not sure I understand the "foot" comment??? Where did I say anything that deserved that?

 

foot in mouth

BLD

Up front I would like to say that I struggle with the Trinity issue. I took three courses there. In this I don't recall a prof on a tape mispronouncing Greek. And while you have no reason to take my word, I completed three grad degrees in Religion all regionally accredited and the rigor I put into a Trinity course approximates those efforts. This is not to say that I think everything is kosher in Trinity's academics. Further, just because I put that work into those classes does not mean all are expected to do the same;I can only speak for myself. What concerns me even more is the cloud ofconfusion Trinity, I think, has been guilty of creating.

Trinity has taken advantage of the the general misinformation about accreditation. The Liverpool "accreditation" I think means nothing to US registrars. This should have been made clear all these years. I struggle with the apparant reality of a school training leaders of the church when that school is not taking pains to be open, honest, and respectable.

As for the foot in the mouth: Were I you despite the flaws we both can find in Trinity, I would be cautious about predicting that their current attempt at accreditation will dismally fail.

Nevertheless, I do apologize for my confrontiveness!!

 

Bill,
I guess our experiences just don't line up. I have four degrees from accredited Bible Colleges/Seminary, including a Masters and Doctorate. My two courses at Trinity were an absolute joke and didn't even come close to the standards at the accredited schools.

In addition, Trinity out and out lied about their accreditation with Liverpool. It wasn't a mistake, oversight, etc...they were purposely deceptive about it. That is enough to describe them as a mill. If that were not enough they STILL run the blatant degree mill Master's Divinity School.

They are beyond defending in my book. I don't mean anything personal by this and I hope you don't take it that way. But I would just as well have a degree from an ACI "accredited" school as Trinity. They are all cut from the same cloth.

BLD

 

BLD

From where are your masters and doctorate?

 

Hi Bill,
My Masters is from Johnson Bible College in Knoxville, TN, and my Doctorate is from American Christian College and Seminary. JBC is RA, ACCS is accredited by TRACS.

BLD

 

Bill I was interested in seeing that your DR was from ACCS. i am currently enrolled there. What was you overall view of the school.
Did you take any on campus stuff and how were the classes.