The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

It is important to note that Dr. Shirley Ann Jackson, the individual who wrote the article that Jim originally quoted, is a very accomplished scholar in physics, who happens to be black ( http://www.rpi.edu/president/profile.html). I can totally understand her desire to augment the number of "underrepresented" students (minorities and women) who will pursue careers in the sciences.

Unfortunately for many years sociological theorists have promulgated myriad theories and "solutions" to deal with this issue but without any meaningful results. The reason? Many of these theories hold that there are no differences between individuals and that given similar educational opportunities ALL people can achieve approximate academic equivalence. In fact these theories fail to consider the we all have unique levels of intellectual and academic potential that in large part are dictated by genetics. For example, it has been known for years that men GENERALLY perform better than women in mathematics and spatial aptitudes whereby women GENERALLY are more proficient in verbal areas. This does not imply that men are superior or that women are inferior but that each of us are endowed with strengths and limitations that can be abetted or hindered by environmental factors. The problem is that we live in a pseudo-egalitarian and politically correct society that holds that there are no GENERAL differences between the sexes or between individuals from diverse ethnic groups when in fact these distinctions do exist and are apparent.

By not acknowledging these differences and blaming society for some individuals not doing well in certain academic areas may make these individuals feel vindicated but unfortunately does not address the problem and does absolutely nothing to develop meaningful educational programs that can perhaps enhance opportunities for more students to excell in the sciences.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

Sorry my entitled friend. You responded to mine when I did not ask you to do so.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

Simon,

I'm sure that people wishing to completely disasssociate themselves from you is not a new experience for you.

We're really back to "Please feel free to respond to someone else's posts instead of mine."

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

Therefore, it seems that we have something in common. A review of a number of responses from members of this forum appear to be disssociating themselves from your ludicrous assertations in this thread.

In addition, you also have the option of not responding to my posts but for some "inexplicable" reason you continue to do so. Oh well, I guess folks like you and me got to stick together becasue no one else likes us.

 

Re: Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

So using your "logic" as an example, do we also have a challenge in the classroom of keeping traditional students from feeling "marginalized" or intimidated by the stereotyped perception of the athletic prowess and dominance that has been attributed to underrepresented ethnic minorities in all sporting and athletic endeavors?

 

Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

You hit upon the crux of the problem in such polarizing thinking. There are many students across ALL ethnic and gender groups who should be involved in such an educational effort to augment the numbers of individuals who are capable of entering science related professions. To dichotomize and focus on the needs of ANY specific group(s) is disparaging and continues the trend towards splitting diverse people creating an environment of distrust and antipathy rather than creating a collaborative alliance that is inclusive of ALL.

 

Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

I think we are, but not everyone is going to be interested. More women? yes, only if they want to. Minorities? if we are speaking of American minorities like the African-American culture, then yes, but this would pertain more to a fairness/equality issue than an economic one. However, encouraging this culture is not the easiest thing in the world, since many in the African-American commnity see science as a White man's creation and don't want to be a part of it.

As far as diversity in the sciences, I don't think that this is a problem. Many engineering, chemistry and physics schools are filled with immigrants (both male and female), first generation Americans and foreigners from all over the world.
I noticed that 50% of all engineering and chemistry students from a nearby university are Indian (or from Indian parents) or from another country in the Middle East.

 

Re: Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

It is garbage to say that anybody in this country has not had the opportunity to explore and discover their abilities in the sciences. For the most part, everybody in this country is required to stay in school at least until the age of sixteen. Some drop out, some flunk out, some quit, some actually manage to graduate high school. Of those who graduate high school, whether they graduate at age eighteen with their peers or whether they graduate later in life by earning their high school at home or getting their GED, some go on to college and others do not. Some drop out of college and some graduate with really nice pieces of paper saying that they are certificated or associates or bachelors or masters or even doctors in their chosen fields. Of those that stay within the educational system long enough to get all kinds of fancy-looking pieces of paper, some have majored in the sciences while others have chosen other majors and so be it. Such as it is, should I ever need to hire a scientist or an engineer, I could care less whether I get a white male scientist/engineer, a white female scientist/engineer, a minority male scientist/engineer, a minority female scientist/engineer, or even a g..d... green purple polka-dotted hermaphroditic Martian scientist/engineer, all I necessarily need is a scientist/engineer regardless of what hue its skin might be or what's between its legs; what's far more important is what's between its ears. The American mediocrity has gotten all uptight about trying to enforce equality of results rather than simply allowing equality of opportunity.

 

Re: Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

Agreed, but there is reasonable evidence that women are interested in computer science, as an example, but they don't stick with it once they try it out. This isn't due to lack of ability, as they often move to other technical fields, such as Biology or Medicine. Participation by women in computer science has actually gone down significantly since the mid 1980's. At the same time, participation by women in medicine is up.

The question becomes, why? I think jimnagrom is correct when he cites intimidation as the problem (more accurately, I think it's correct to say that intimidation is part of the problem). I've seen too much anectodal evidence of intelligent women leaving CS, physics, and other male-dominated technical fields for fields (often technical) with more balance. To help with this, educators need to be aware of the dynamic in their classrooms and figure out ways to make the women feel like they belong. As far as the workplace is concerned, enough companies are moving in the right direction that I am not as concerned about long-term problems in the private sector. Google isn't recruiting women heavily because it makes them look good. They are doing it because they recognize that talented women are being marginalized in many places and they can snag them and gain a competitive advantage. There is a meritocracy at work at Google. Those that decry Google's hiring practices as afformative action nonsense fail to recognize the incredible talents of these female employees.

In any case, I don't actually have a problem with the statement that we should "identify, nurture, and encourage the intellectual talent of groups -- women
and ethnic minorities -- currently underrepresented in science and
technology." The problem I actually had was the author states the problem as a general shortage of technical, scientific, and engineering professionals of all sorts and then gives a partial solution. If we really have a shortage of engineers, we should be trying to increase the number of engineering students of all ethnicities and both genders. The gender and ethnic imbalance is a separate issue to be dealth with.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

I draw the line at employing Martians. Nice race, and some of my best friends are Martians, but the 1/100 ATM enviro room requirement (let alone accommodating their 24 1/2 hour diurnal cycles - can't they slide thirty minutes?) just has too much impact on corporate culture.

One of our HR geniuses thought we could hire some if we let them work from their home offices. Do you have any idea what it's like to conference someone in on a meeting with the two-way radio transit time between Earth and Mars? Sure, when we're in opposition, six minutes seems doable. But wait about a year and it's over forty minutes and that's IF the Sun isn't in the way.

I wish them well; nice job on the canals and all, but they're just not what we're looking for.

 

Increase the number of scientists

Throwing in my 2 cents !

One way to look at ways to increase the number of scientists is to find out why

1) in a family of children having the same blood parents , why is it that one goes into science and the others choose to go in a non hard science field

2) why in a particular province or state there are more hard science graduates than in other states or provinces

3) why in a particular high school there are more hard science students than in other high schools in the same city

4) why some countries produce more hard science graduates than other countries within the same so-called " race " for lack of a better term, e.g. Germany and Portugal, or Korea and China , or South Africa and Nigeria.

Any takers on this approach to the subject ?

 

Increase the number of scientists

Throwing in my 2 cents !

One way to look at ways to increase the number of scientists is to find out why

1) in a family of children having the same blood parents , why is it that one goes into science and the others choose to go in a non hard science field

2) why in a particular province or state there are more hard science graduates than in other states or provinces

3) why in a particular high school there are more hard science students than in other high schools in the same city

4) why some countries produce more hard science graduates than other countries within the same so-called " race " for lack of a better term, e.g. Germany and Portugal, or Korea and China , or South Africa and Nigeria.

Any takers on this approach to the subject ?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The United States is in the midst of a "Quiet Crisis."

Well, if you could solve the communications problem, consider that, if you offer a Martian the same annual salary as an Earthling, the Martian would have to make his/her annual salary last rather a bit longer than the Earthling!

 

Re: Increase the number of scientists

Free will!

 

In our psuedo-egalitarian/politically correct society, many people do not like the idea that genetics, early childhood familial involvement in childrens education and personal responsibility generally plays a significant role in one's ultimate capacity to succeed academically and in the sciences. It is held that the onus falls on teachers, not students or their families, to provide a milieu which will enable more students, especially minority students, to attain higher math, reading and science achievement. Unfortunately, after more than forty years of intensive governmental efforts ( including billions of dollars) to boost the number of "nontraditional" students entering advanced university educational programs in the sciences (ie, engineering, physics, chemistry), the number of such students actually engaging in these fields has been abysmally low.

Coming forth with theories that the "underrepresented" student is being intimidated by mainstream students may have some merit in certain instances but generally speaking is a spurious rationalization to explain why so few such students enter the sciences as a profession. Jews were historically intimidated, were in slavery, persecuted, destroyed by the millions but yet, without any excuses, made incredible achievements in the all areas of science and mathematics. Other "nontraditional" groups, such as people from the far east, come to the USA, and also make significant marks in all areas of the sciences, without one whimper or externalization of blame of their minority status in our culture. BTW, the same academic attainment in the sciences holds true for Jewish and Oriental women.

So yes, I would expect some posters would feel uncomfortable with my posts because they point in the direction of personal accountability and responsbility rather than a continued and unproductive pattern of externalizing blame onto society for the ongoing problem of how to get more "underrepresented" students interested in the sciences.

 

Involvement in the hard sciences

Well, Simon and Theodore, I have no problem personally with your opinion

BUT how do you INCREASE the number of Jewish and Oriental women,

How do you increase free will for the hard sciences ?

I think that at that moment you have to think of ways to INCREASE the number by ENCOURAGING through better and more scholarships, after school tutoring to schools where the teachers of these hard science subjects are average , better pedagogical resources in the schools with under par science labs and lack of a variety of texts on these hard science subjects.

You do not raise scientists in a gang subculture where easy money and junk food and poor access to medical services.

It requires more than free will and personal desire , some basics and a dollop of supportive environment.

 

A Different Perspective

One very significant reason why we have a shortage of engineers is the structure of our educational system. Many poor US citizens cannot afford to enter into the college structure accept through the community college avenue.

In the state of Indiana, a student who achieves an Associates degree from the community college may not continue his/her education by transferring into an ABET/EAC Engineering program. The student is forced into a technology (ABET/TAC or NAIT) program to achieve a Bachelors Degree.

This road block effectively separates the rich student from the poor by locking them into a path that is set in stone. Minority students who cannot afford to enter into the educational system by attending a big ABET/EAC university finds that he/she is trapped within a program curriculum that is tainted by non-ABET status.

The discrimination of this system is perpetuate by the fallacy that a non-ABET programs cannot be built upon or amended because it lacks a calculus agenda. It is important to point out to these ethnocentric representatives that other countries are effectively using technology programs as prep programs for full engineering status. Many of these programs are Sydney Accord participants.

 

Re: Involvement in the hard sciences

What about Alvin?

 

Re: Re: Involvement in the hard sciences

Alvin. Alvin? ALLLLLL-VINNNNN!