Masters with the least amount of credits

Malcom, thanks for the feedback, but too cryptic an answer for this early in the morning. Please explain more clearly how the MA/MSC were introduced into the system..SO,SO SMOOTHLY, was it by taking bits from the honours program and bits from the MBA programs?.

Is it not the case, that it would tougher to get into the MBA but not the MA/MSC?

Terminal outcomes, grads that is, could be at par with each other, and the fact that MBA intake is going down, so a need for an alternate is the fast track MA/MSC...watch out HW, I'll bet UK domestic students in the HW program are less than 10% of international?

Second part of the question (CNAA), can you qualify the comment of Kennedy more precisely for the way the increase in universities was done and where exactly did all this qualified staff come from?

Was there that much money poured into education by the Brit government to create the double amount of universities in 20 years?

J.R (ic)

 

Wrong target

Lawrie

I am not yet clear why you appear to be having a fight about what I said – though I know that early in the morning we sometimes misread something (I sent the quartet of messages at 6.30 am this morning – it was raining and it delayed my ‘healthy’ morning walk).

I did not say that ‘cheap’, ‘least credits’ or ‘shortest time’ equated to low standards. That was not my target. I said I was concerned about the number of people on this site (whose views may be just as valuable as mine) who chase after these characteristics; ‘But what about standards?’ I asked. Should these not feature at the top of the agenda. I believe that standards are more important than cheapness, least credits and duration. That was my target. My message has been misread (or if you prefer, not properly explained).

That such cheap, easy and short degree programmes may be associated with ‘junk’ degrees is plausible, though I did not argue that they were. Of the Schools and degrees that have been raised around these discussions in various threads and which I know about, I am prepared to argue that some of them are lacking in standards. I base this assertion of knowledge of their examination and assessment regimes. Your ire was raised accidentally and you have rushed to defend something not attacked.

Lawrie draws conclusions from the HW MBA degree. First, standards. Lawrie is asserts that the HW MBA is open to charges of low standards because we have low cost and duration (I return to these topics in a moment). Our examination regime is among the toughest of MBA offerings around the world, including the usual ‘Top Ten’. This is a deliberate policy, provoking occasional critical comments. It is our reply to low standards: not by assertion: sit our exams and pass of perish.

Second cost. We priced the distance MBA programme in 1992 to make a surplus (aka profit) without reference to existing other campus MBAs or indeed distance MBAs. We noticed some years ago that we were in the bottom quartile of world MBA prices and we have been raising our unit prices above inflation accordingly almost annually. The new price from January goes up the GBP600 a course (print only) and on-line + print is GBP800. This latter will eventually be the base price. Our on campus students pay GBP1200 per subject. John Spies considers our prices as ‘expensive’ and is considering other ‘cheaper’ MBAs – it was to him and others I was cautioning, not anything that Lawrie is doing with his ‘4 week BA’, of which I looked at only today.

Duration. I have stated the normal duration of FT: 1 year’ PT: 2 years and DL 3 years. That somebody theoretically could do it in a shorter time is a product of our flexibility in rules (start anytime, exams four times a year, sit as many exams as you think you can pass). In practice, the minimum times to completion of the 1,000 graduates each year is as stated above and the average times for PT and DL much longer. Our exams are too tough to undertake more than two comfortably at a time – many sit only one (with 8,000 active students in over 100 countries we have plenty of confirming evidence). I am still not sure where his 7 months comes from: that would require 9 exams in two Diets, or with a maximum of 2 exemptions: 7 exams in two Diets. I do not believe that is possible, any more than I believe that because ‘an American born citizen can become President’ means that anybody qualifying has the same chance of becoming one.

‘Only nine subjects compared to 12 elsewhere.’ We group all economics under the single title Economics, where other Business Schools break it into Managerial Economics, Micro and Macro, International Economics, etc. This does indicate that ‘12’ subjects is ‘better than ‘9’. Similarly with all our core courses and the 20 Electives we offer. To argue the 12 v 9 point is almost too silly to pursue – it’s like the temperature scales Centigrade and Fahrenheit.

I looked at Lawrie’s ‘4 week BA’ site and see where he is coming from. Fine if he considers these offerings as of a good standard. I cannot judge by glancing at the syllabi only. I remain sceptical of the measurable standards of ‘portfolio’ collections and such like. But that was not my concern. EBS is a graduate school.

 

The former polytechnics already had some taught Master's degrees before they became universities. One of my own degrees is such an MSc. (They also had a small number of students working for PhD degrees.) In the former polytechnic in which I now teach, Master's degrees have been built up on top of undergraduate degrees and usually cover additional material, as well as sometimes overlapping with final year honours work in content but with a requirement for a higher level of achievement (usually in terms of critical evaluation and/or original thinking). This is no different from what happens in "old" universities.

In the Business School of my own university there is no difference in the quantity of work required for an MA as distinct from an MBA. All the Master's programmes are 180 credits. The differences are in prerequisites (the MBA requires previous professional business experience).

As regards the change in status of polytechnics and Colleges of Higher Education into "new" universities, the main change was in who actually awarded the degrees. The staff teaching for those degrees were already in place, as were the students. The primary difference between "new" universities and "old" universities was that the "new" universities offered degree programmes which in some subject areas (like my own - Computing) were seen as being more vocational and less theoretical. Removing the label of CNAA from the degrees meant recognising "parity of esteem" between different approaches to higher education.

Since 1992 when these changes took place the "new" universities were quicker to increase their intake of students, although the "old" universities have now, in many cases, also increased in size. There is also considerably more ovelap in the sorts of courses available in the different institutions. Research activity has also grown in the "new" universities, although it is still generally regarded there as having a lower priority than teaching (unlike some "old" universities where it only appeared as the fourth item in the conditions of service for academic staff after research, publication, and administration).

The change in the number of universities is not a change in the number of institutions teaching to degree level, but only in the number given university status and awarding their own degrees. No new institutions have actually been created in this process. As regards funding, the increase in the number of students has not been accompanied by a matching increase in government funding, but rather the amount available per student has declined somewhat over the years.

Malcolm S Jenner

 

The politics of education

John Roberts asks some interesting questions about the transformation in the late-80s/early 90s of the UK hiugher education system. The government re-designated the polytechnics as universities and brought them within the Royal Charter system. Previously their degrees were awarded under the authority of a government quango: the CNAA. Most radical educationalists had advocated this for years. I agree that my concerns about the quality of some of the UK MBAs - in the standards sense - refers to some of the former polytechnics (represented in Lawries' MBA listings) and to some of the traditional universities (also listed by Lawrie and others that are not). I am here concerned with their examination systems and not with the quality of their staff, indistinguishable as they are from all universities.

MSc degrees are pass/fail. MPhils are regarded by some academics as compensatory degrees for failed PhDs. But neither come from canabalising Honours degrees.

 

Malcom, CLARITY at last, for the members of this board..thanks.

Last word from me on this..Kennedy was seen to say and imply that he was showing the world that the UK was up to snuff, by the mere increases in Universities.

Can you imagine from the people on this side of the pond seeing this, they would think a miracle had occured in education, with all of us wondering how we could tap the money pool to do the same, thinking as well that maybe the Non traditional diploma business places counted as being increases in Instutions of learning.

Many thanks again, no more from me on this.

Have a great weekend.

J.R (ic)

 

All this has got mixed up!

I enjoy reading Gavin Kennedy's remarks and responses. However, I think he has made the assertion here somewhere that UK master's degrees are either all achieved by thesis or written examination. This is quite wrong! Many, many master's degree level awards are often a combination of continous assessment (course work) and/or timed, unseen written examination and/or a dissertation, and especially so in MBA programmes. I have taught at two major UK business schools that have AMBA accreditation and all types of MBA (including distance-learning) required the submission of an extended project/dissertation in addition to course work and unseen, timed examinations. We have to consider a number of things here - the age of candidates taking master's degree level awards, how adults learn (and most don't after a certain age by taking timed, written examinations and the research evidence is clear about this!) and the interesting fact that in the last five years in Uk universities we have seen the launch of over 290 'alternative to the MBA' type programmes emerge for those people for whom the 'traditional MBA' is not appropriate!

I do agree with Professor Kennedy re standards. Isn't education about 'learning', 'understanding' and 'wisdom'? These do not necessarily occur and/or are acquired just by taking classes and passing written examinations.

'telfax'

 

Telfax, a bang on statement, especially in Management education of any kind.

Pity the places of learning in the USA dont use this approach, since it is always assumed that entry to a MBA or EMBA the prospective student is always equal in brain power, staminer and learning abilities, seen by the passing of the dreded GMAT.

The USA has a greater fall out of MBA students by comparison to the UK...can someone confirm me wrong?

Was'nt it the Brits that came up with the continuos assessment method, which has proved in my mind that graduates should be better equipped than their USA counterparts that follow the traditional EXAM route (pass it or fail it).

Good feedback..thanks TELFAX.

J.R (ic)

 

Tell me, if you will, where is the evidence of this superiority Gavin? Certainly not in this debate where you have singularly failed to offer any cogent argument or bring to bear any rational analysis based on empirical evidence. You speak of standards and rigor but you have demonstrated neither. Data, citation, analyses, syntheses.

Have a look at Peter Glaeser's bio on my web site and you tell me where he is inferior.

Next time I'm in Scotland, which should be real soon, we can get together and you can demonstrate your superiority first hand, because I see precious little evidence of it here. All we have had is unsubstantiated allegations, pontification, and self indulgent preening. You cannot articulate a coherent viewpoint. In debate you are being ground to powder. Good grief man, your embarrassing the race in front of all these foreigners.


Lawrie Miller
author: BA in 4 Weeks -
http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks

 

Since my name was mentioned I thought I would reply to the comment.
Professor, I am sorry if I led you to believe that I thought HW was 'expensive.' On the contrary, I think the program to be an excellent value. If you will recall, I wanted to see some test papers, etc. to get an idea of whether or not I am even capable of pursuing an MBA with Heriot-Watt. Really, my concern is the difficulty. Once I establish that I can learn the material, I will enroll. In fact, I have been playing with this idea for several years and because of my perception re: having a masters and no bachelors have been delayed. I will have my BS soon and that is the reason for my search.
I worked at a country club in Little Rock and got to know Dr. Harper Boyd who authored the marketing segment of the course. He assured me that I was capable. As you know he is now deceased, this was several years ago.
Anyway, you are wrong regarding my thoughts on expense. I continue to think that HW offers the best 'bang for the buck' as well as quality, convenience, flexibility, and utility.
regards, John Spies

 

Embarrassing?

Lawrie

You are descending into personal abuse which is often a sign of disrespect and of losing one's place. Now calm down. Take a glass of water and relax.

People offering easy routes to competence are not being truthful with their clients. Some take money off them. These are not the same people as you. I have made that clear.

My assertion is that however you study - and we learn in different modes, hence we do not dictate to students how they should study for the EBS MBA - the sole test of their performance is by examination which has stripped out as many of the exceptions as is possible to provide as close to a secure provenance of the answers as we can. These are all graded in Edinburgh by our fulltime faculty and externally examined by senior faculty from other British Business School.

About 4-5,000 students sit each diet about 10,000 papers. The data is stored, compiling scores in each question (MCQs, Cases and Essays) to each student, each exam centre and several other characteristics. Nothing is 'normed'; no Bell curves. On the basis of these data we have fairly firm ideas of association, including between subjects, of the evidence of performance and their preparation for examination..

Our assertions are that performance relates to knowledge, analytical, evaluative and synthesis abilities and that our regime of no choice of questions (any topic in the Subject may be tested sequentially, irregularly or not at all) is superior to soft regimes, question spotting, continuous assessment and projects of unproven provenance, attendance (!) and class performance marks.

Now what is Lawrie's complaint about this? Our pedagogy was researched in the time when we were the Esmee Fairbairn Research Centre into education and learning, much of it published in such as The American Economic Review and other refereed journals. I have not paraded this work to date because I assumed (wrongly) that discourse on this site was between members of the republic of the interllect and not people in a noisy bar en route home.

I will get a list of our research prepared and send it to Lawrie and when he visits Scotland and EBS he can meet the professors who undertook this work. His counter arguments and the case he makes for passing exams for a BA in four weeks will be heard respectfully, as his is due. As will his assertion that students can pass the nine EBS MBA exams in two diets - which I have asserted is most unlikely with a probability of O.9 or higher.

Abusing a disputant, declaring the argument 'won' and behaving like a teenager (apologies to teenagers) is more sad than annoying.

 

Re: Wrong target

Yes, I am aware of your observations and there implications, and if you read my responses you will see that I address the points you raise.


Gavin
draws conclusions from the HW MBA degree. First, standards. Lawrie is asserts that the HW MBA is open to charges of low standards because we have low cost and duration (I return to these topics in a moment).

Lawrie
No, I don't charge that, you do. All I did was apply your standard to your program to demonstrate how useless that standard is.

Gavin:
Our examination regime is among the toughest of MBA offerings

Lawrie
irrelevant. You set the criteria, Gavin, they did not include subjective assessment of their quality by a paid employee of the University.

You miss the point entirely. I sought to demonstrate that the assessment you make of other institutions and their programs, can be made by them about you, based on the evidence. You say, it isn't like that and I am sure you are right. Yet other academics in institutions you rubbish might offer similar justifications based on their thorough knowledge of their institutions practices and policies. They might equally apply the criteria you created to HW MBA, and if they do, the answer will be that it is substandard. These were your criteria. Not mine, yours. They were applied to HW MBA according to the rules you dreamed up.

I played devils advocate to demonstrate this point, and had you read further you would have known that. I bring it together at the end, Gavin. Synthesis. Now, if you force me to quote the passage from a post just a mouse roll away, I will.

You questioned the motives of those who pursue or prefer these degrees. You talk of lack of standards but you produce not one bit of evidence in support of your claims. You chose the criteria and it is incontrovertible, despite your protestations, that HW fits Pretty nearly perfectly.

You argue, "ah but no one or very few could complete in that time frame". As I have pointed out innumerable times, we are looking at the published regulations and basing assessment on them. Any and every professor, administrator , in every school would have a series of ah buts. You want yours taken into account but the others ignored. You seem to want your team judged by a different set of standards, taking into account this caveat and that exception. This is nonsense. We cannot apply the rule in that manner. It is a very crude instrument, and ultimately, given the endless exceptions and caveats, useless. . . and that, Gavin, is the point.

Gavin
Duration. I have stated the normal duration of FT: 1 year’ PT: 2 years and DL 3 years.

Lawrie
Irrelevant. That is not the minimun duration, Gavin, as you well know. Again, these are your criteria. two diets

Gavin
In practice, the minimum times to completion of the 1,000

Lawrie
Irrelevant. All that is taken into account is the minimum time allowable under the published rules. You choose to judge other institutions by their minimum published time to complete, but you want special dispensation for the HW MBA. Play by the rules, Every administrator and their brother is going to cite exceptional circumstances.

Gavin
‘Only nine subjects compared to 12 elsewhere.’ We group all economics under the single title Economics, where other Business Schools break it into Managerial Economics, Micro and Macro,

Lawrie
Irrelevant. We are looking only at the base published information. You cannot add the caveats and refuse to allow other institutions to do the same.


Lawrie Miller
author: BA in 4 Weeks and Accelerated Master's Degrees by Distance Learning*
http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/

 

Re: Embarrassing?

Gavin
Abusing a disputant, declaring the argument 'won' and behaving like a teenager (apologies to teenagers) is more sad than annoying.

Lawrie
What I find sad is that you make unsolicited offensive remarks about the motivations of others and then refuse to provide any substantiation or retraction.

Gavin in the previous post
"People offering 'easy' routes to competence may be well intentioned, even saintly, but they do the people who 'buy' these schemes and invest their time and money in trying them no favours"

Lawrie
I call that kind of thick condescension abusive, what do you call it?

Lawrie
Wouldn't a better use of the space be to answer the questions that have been repeatedly asked of you? Where are the data that back your assertions? Where is the evidence?

Lawrie Miller
author: BA in 4 Weeks and Accelerated Master's Degrees by Distance Learning
http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/

 

Re: All this has got mixed up!

How would you know if 'learning', 'understanding' and 'wisdom' were being passed on or inculcated unless you measure them? If you do not examine them, you cannot know of their presence.

Therefore to speak of them (i.e. they are knowable) is to imply they have been examined or assessed.

The only way we can know that 'learning', 'understanding' and 'wisdom' have been passed, is to measure their level in the student before the education and measure them again after the education. Put another way, we confirm the initial conditions, this is the baseline, we then apply the treatment, then we measure again.

The effect of the education, is the difference between the baseline measurements and the measurements taken after application of the treatment.

In all cases it is through demonstration of competencies that we know of the existence of an ability and the quality of that ability.

However 'learning', 'understanding' and 'wisdom' occur, they cannot be known if they are not tested. So, passing exams is indeed an essential component of an education.

In fact they are the only necessary constant. We can vary pedagogy this way and that, but we must always test. Always.

To take it further, testing measures the outcome of a treatment or process. To render impartial testing, both the test and the interpreter of the results of the test (the outcomes) must be insensitive to the manner of the treatment or process.

To take that a little further, the process and governing ethos (pedagogy) have no intrinsic value. They only have meaning in terms of the outcomes they effect and affect. It follows that education, has no justification for being other than in terms of the outcomes it produces or modifies.

Since education only has meaning in terms of outcomes, and, outcomes can only be knowable through testing, while telfax's proposition may be correct, we cannot know it is correct or incorrect without testing.

Testing is the constant in education. If we have no testing it is meaningless to speak of education. Education only has meaning in terms of outcomes. It has zero intrinsic value without reference to its affect on outcomes. To labor the point, you cannot meaningfully speak or contemplate education without reference to testing or assessment.

So, if it is said, and it has often been said here, that there are some qualities of "an education" that are not amenable to testing, the question becomes, how do you know? You cannot know the unknowable,

Equally, it is also true that the statement, "some qualities of an education are not amenable to testing", is oxymoronic and absurd.


Lawrie Miller
author: BA in 4 Weeks and Accelerated Master's Degrees by Distance Learning*
http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/

 

Re: Re: All this has got mixed up!

I don't find this educational positivism convincing.

If I read a book, hopefully I will know more when I am finished reading it than when I began. That's true whether or not I am ever examined on the material.

Perhaps a better way to conceptualize this is to say that education remains subjective and private until it is measured against a public standard. Testing is one of the things that makes the breadth and depth of education objective.

(Assuming that the tests successfully measure what they purport to measure, which is another difficult question.)

So I'd say that if a student is interested in education itself, and not in certification (whether in the form of oourse credit or degrees), tests are of little relevance except as study guides.

I'll also add that education might make itself publicly known in many ways besides formal examinations. A person who has done some study might be more skilled on the job or might demonstrate knowledge of a subject in technical discussion, for example. Some might argue that these are better measures of education than testing since they can better demonstrate the ability to integrate new learning with older knowledge and to deploy it creatively.

 

If only....

If only everything was capable of being tested! However, it is not! I pity those peopkle people who think everything is open to being tested! This is where, in my view, the education industry is going wrong! The more people you expose to the education system (and I am not opposed to this) the greater will be the need and requirment (especially government) to classify and quantify everything. The UK govt has just introduced into initial school education the biggest and most crass system of assessment that will over burden children and teachers - all to make central govt be able to massage statistics. But this doesnlt matter here so I'll stop.

If you go with Gavin Kennedy's MBA programm then you enter knowing it s limits and expectations. It's a programme 'of a type' that will suit certain types of people with certain typed of learniong styles. It will not meet the learning styles of over 50 per cent of the population. This is one of my areas of expertise (adult learning) but this is not the place to start pontificating but I'll be happy to cite two sources of rerences (one Us and UK0 if anyone is interested in starting to read around the subject.

Final comment. The breaking sown of programmes into courses, hours put in, units, etc, etc I simply destest. I tell my students:

There are more things in heaven and earth than are drwamt of in your philosophy Horatio (Hamlet).

Education and learning is about taking risk and ..........!


An aside! I was asked by the marketing guy where I work for a new 'strap line' to describe the business school's work. Of course, I totally underwtand what he meant by 'strap line'! He thinks he's just discovered them! I then suddenly started reciting to statements along these lines:

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

et al.....

Get my drift?!

I hate the fact that we have reduced education and learning to a 'commodity' and levels of competence. As much as we need to know that people can perform at a specified level there is so much more......ah well!
'telfax




'telfax'

 

Yes. I like your answer better than mine.

 

Telefax: " I think he has made the assertion here somewhere that UK master's degrees are either all achieved by thesis or written examination. This is quite wrong! Many, many master's degree level awards are often a combination of continous assessment (course work) and/or timed, unseen written examination and/or a dissertation, and especially so in MBA programmes. I have taught at two major UK business schools that have AMBA accreditation and all types of MBA (including distance-learning) required the submission of an extended project/dissertation in addition to course work and unseen, timed examinations. We have to consider ... how adults learn (and most don't after a certain age by taking timed, written examinations and the research evidence is clear about this!) and the interesting fact that in the last five years in Uk universities we have seen the launch of over 290 'alternative to the MBA' type programmes emerge for those people for whom the 'traditional MBA' is not appropriate!"

You have opened a large discussion topic which I would like to address in future exchanges. I was referring to traditional MSc programmes as they used to be before th deluge of alternative offerings. My MSc (1972) was by thesis only (on negotiation at an oil refinery, if anyone is interested); I taught for many years on MSc programmes in economics, some of which had projects. The dl MSc programmes coming through EBS are all taught and examined, no projects or thesis or dissertations.

Yes, examination have been diluted (if corrupted is too strong a word) by 'continuous assessment', which in a dl context is definitely corruptible and of risky provenance (I'm talking about in the rest of the world outside the US education system, which is, of course, above scams and fraudulent representation). Soft exam regimes lead to non-scalability, weakening of standards, local subjectivism and less certainty of the students' competence.

I too believe in measuring outputs and not inputs - can the pilot fly a jumbo or fast jet safely to complete the mission satisfactorily?; not what she can do on a simulator for x per cent of her grading, y per cent for 'teamwork', class interventions, attendance and z per cent positive discrimination in compensation for living in a gender prejudiced world, or her 'ex-colonial status'. (I overstate my case deliberately.)

EBS is not aiming to dominate world education. Even 50 per cent is too much. We provide a route for those who have ability - and can prove it by passing our examinations - but whose life experiences and job/family circumstances prevent them from undertaking FT or PT study on campus. For the 8,000 - and growing numbers of active MBA students - the alternative to EBS is often no MBA, not a campus MBA. To ensure no rip offs we have deliberately raised high standards of measured output. Over 1,000 graduates a year around the world meet our high standards. Our Alumni demonstrate to employers their performance so that growing numbers know what they are hiring when they hire an EBS MBA.

It is our small contribution to legitimising dl learning rather than undermining it with the widespread softening of examination regimes as practised by many 'top Schools' and justified by their associated marketing agencies.

Of course there is much more to learning than passing exams. I read widely and nobody examines me afterwards. But my current reading of a book called 'Echoes of Eden', or a book on an aspect of Adam Smith's philosophy (for a book I am writing) are not about convincing a third party to pay me money to apply what I am learning in my reading, which is the outcome of an MBA, though I am sure I have learned more than I knew before I opened either book.

 

Now compare that with a clergyman with a doctorate who has completed a 90 credit hour Master of Divinity (Greek langauge and maybe Hebrew) plus the 36 hour plus (some are up to 60 credit hours) Doctor of Ministry. Their total academic investment in graduate credits would be 126 (or more).

A theologian would have even more and stiffer langauge requirements on the way to the ThD/PhD.

Quite a lot of variation

North [/B][/QUOTE]

====================================
The prerequisite for the Unizul Thd studies is a ThM. The Western ThM ( Master of Theology) is awarded upon completion of one hundred and twenty-six (126) graduate semester units, competencies in two languages (ie working knowledge of, not mastery of), thesis, and comprehensive verbal exam. When I signed up for the doc by thesis only I thought " Man, I'll be cruisin in overdrive now." But nope, I'm still pullin up this hill in granny gear!
====================================

 

Re: Embarrassing?

Professor Kennedy - Welcome to the club. I've seen some of the same sort of abuse in the past.

I applaud the fact that you have published your pedagogy in refereed journals. The referee process is the standard way academic people review papers. Personally, I've recently submitted a paper on outcome assessment in IT education. I'll await reports from the referees before I bring it to this NG.

Lawrie - has any of your BA in 4 weeks worked been submitted to a refereed journal? If not, have you considered this as a way to validate your work?

Regards - Andy

 

I don't know that your conclusion is necessarily inaccurate, but the basis certainly seems flawed. How can you base a comparison of the required amount of work for a master's degree upon the normal amount of work undertaken at an undergraduate level? I really don't see how you can make that leap.

In the US, 9 semester hours is considered full-time at the graduate level, while 12 semester hours is considered a full-time at the undergraduate level. A load of 15 semester hours is probably a fair guess for an average full-time load at the undergraduate level, but this would be a very high load at the graduate level, and probably the maximum allowed by most schools, provided that the student does not have any other obligations (work, assistantship, etc.). Since I am actually taking 15 semester hours of graduate coursework this semester, I will offer my subjective opinion that it is probably analogous to taking at least 21 semester hours at the undergraduate level, if not more. In any case, I'm not convinced that undergraduate workloads translate in any meaningful way to graduate program requirements.