Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

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Bill, I used to have vast theological library consisting of the works of Wesley, Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc. I have given all these away as I have had to reduce my library as I was accumulating too much.

I basically have books on counseling, the Restoration Movement and denominational history along with some contemporary theologcial authors and some language books.

The quotes I got out of some of these books I no longer have but wrote them down in my Bible for study notes. I will try to find the sources on the Internet and get back to you.

Yes, Campbell contradicted himself as he did many times on many issues. Again, that's why Barton Stone is the Restoration Movement leader I admire and come close to in my own theology along with Channing and Hicks.

 

Yea, it's the money, a full one-time $75 nearly eight years' ago for designing one course. Don't insult me, Alan, you're a better man and better Christian than that!

I never said their theology was bad or wrong. I just don't agree with Trinitarians. That doesn't mean I am right and they are wrong. I studied at Earlham School of Religion for several years and didn't agree with all their theological statements. Again, that doesn't mean they are wrong and I am right.

There are numerous theologies within the Christian faith. Why do you think there are more than 2,000 denominations? Not all differences revolve around church government.

 

OK Jimmy, that was a cheap shot. If I have followed you comments accurately, you were able to work with Bethany because for you it does not matter what one believes, for all are really brothers and sisters in Christ anyway!
If that is your view, I can say one thing, you are certainly in the majority in "Christianity" now days!
I will say another, I am certainly, definately, truly not in that majority.

 

Calvin

Bill,

I will keep looking but here is a link that speaks of Calvin's position on the Trinity. Scroll down to number 4:

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch14.htm

I just remembered I have the book Memoirs of Alexander Campbell and will see if the quote from him is in it.

It's nice discussing these matters with you but you have far more scholarship and knowledge than I. Thank you for not being condescending as others have been.

 

It does matter what one believes. Respecting what others believe and not thinking one is right and everyone else is wrong is the point I was making.

 

Re: Calvin

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Jimmy

That reference does not say that Calvin denied the Trinity. It says that Calvin did not accept some arguments as the plural Elohim as evidence. Please believe me, I am not trying to talk down to you. I enjoy discussing these things. BTW, I'm sure that you know that citations should be from primary sources.


In his commentaries Calvin regularly says that Christ is God. On John 1:1 ,after condemning Arius, Calvin says the essence of the Father and the Son is the same. On 20:28 of John Calvin says that Thomas calls Jesus both Lord and God. I could evidence this much further, but I hope you see the point. [my set of Calvin's Commentaries is Bakers, 2003]

Likewise in his Institutes of the Christian Religion in Book 1, chap 13 Calvin repeatedly acknowledges the full deity of Christ and the Trinity. He concludes that chap by saying, "...three Persons in one God." The actual title of that chapter is,"The Unity of the Divine Essence in Three Persons Taught, in Scripture, From the Beginning of the World." [my edition is Eerdmann', 1979].

I suggest you revamp your understanding of Calvin's opinion of Christ by reading that chapter of the Institutes. It's probably on line somewhere.

 

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What do you think Philippians 2:6-8 means and why do you think that?

 

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Umm, unless it was specifically revealed to you, personally, I think that makes it subjective. Granted, informed by your studies and your faith, but still subjective. But, for my money, all issues of faith are subjective.

Beware the person who believes they have the only truth.



Tom Nixon

 

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If I were not unplugged before, I think this thread is making me so

 

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Hi, Bill,

Nothing will get resolved here as this issue has been debated and addressed since Christ.

If Jesus is God is Mary the mother of Jesus or the mother of God? The Eastern church debated this. The decision was not to go with Yaldath Alaha (Mother of God) but rather Yaldath M'Shikha (Mother of Christ).

Now regarding Phil. 26-8.

Humility brings exaltation from God is the theme of these verses.

Philippians 2:6-8

Again, what translation?

Moffatt, The Sacred Scriptures, and Rotterham all say something different.

“Being in the form (morphe) of God.”

Morphe denotes appearance. The essential character of something is known.

Christ enjoyed a God-like way of being.

“Being like God”

isa, not ison, indicates likeness, not equality.

In Jewish tradition (see the Wisdom literature) being like God meant immunity to death.


As I mentioned earlier, the quotes came out of primary sources that I don't have anymore. However, after an exhaustive Internet search, here is a quote from Barton Stone about Calvin's position and the source of the quote:

I am still looking for the Campbell quote.

 

Funny how Earlham School of Religion keeps surfacing over and over again. ESR is RA, ATS, and ethical. I guess if one's MDiv is from a school which is none of those things, and a desperate need for reflected glory ravages, then keep mentioning a school one never graduated from over and over and over again until that minor detail gets forgotten.

The technique of the endlessly repeated creative assertion was developed (and named) by Paul Joseph something-or-other, a D.phil. from Heidelberg--GAAP school and really *did* graduate--who went on to other things.

Oh, yeah. Bill's e-mail is fixed.

Oh, yeah, too, it's Otto W. Heick for that doctrine overview, not Heicks. Somewhere I have an autographed copy of the thing. Otto (olov hasholom) had me do a paper on Martin Luther King's Christology.* When I turned it in he asked me if I'd plagiarized any of it. I said no. He said "that's either commendable academic detachment from your subject or a poor strategy for getting a PhD. in theology out East." Otto was an Israelite without any guile, even if he was a Kraut from Nebraska--a real Plattedeutscher, geddit?



*That's Jr., not Sr. Daddy King wrote his own stuff.

 

Bill,

Forgive my ignorance but does anteNicene mean the ones prior to the Nicene council? Would Polycarp, for example, be considered an anteNicene church father?

Why do you find them less helpful? Is it because of the scattering of thought prior to the councils? Also, is there a volume or set with them as well that you would consider a good work/collection?

Thanks!

 

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Jimmy:

That's OK, forget it.

 

When I lived in Germany I used to hang out in Kiel. Plattedeutsch is a weird dialect, though it seems to be dying out. I used to listen to some of the Danish TV while there. It's a nice sounding language. Isn't Plattedeusch a mix of German & Danish? Or is there some English mixed in as well?

I will say that they speak real clear Hoch Deusch! I was stationed in Kitzingen which is along the Main River in northern Bavaria. What a difference. There was still a bit of rivalry between the two areas, mostly among the older generations. The elders used to joke about the good old days when you could still shoot a Prussian.

Note: I was in Germany in the late eighties

 

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Kevin, there is a 10 vol set which is the Ante-Nicene Fathers ; as you say, these are those before Nice which was in 325. The Apostoloic Fathers are a part. Polycarp , who wrote to the Philippians was an apostolic father being likely a friend of John. These apostolic Fathers are valuable to me because of their witness to the NT/OT canons and texts, and because they testify to the deity of Christ. Polycarp , eg, calls Christ, "Our Lord and God"[12:2].

But I find the post apostolic fathers less valuable , to me, because the trinal doctrine as Origin's, Tertullian's, and Tatian's , becomes a monarchianism to avoid tritheism. In them the Son is eternally essentiated and consequently is less than the Father though He is eternal and of the same nature of the Father (in the theology of the last two anyway).

How's SATS coming along?

 

not Tatian, Novatian.

 

Hi Kevin.

It's Plattdeutsch in Germany, but it's Plattedeutsch in Nebraska (geddit??? It's a geography joke.)

Platt varies somewhat from area to area. A friend of mine who is fluent in Norwegian and Danish said he could detect many similarities, just as you did. I don't know either variant of Dano-Norwegian, but knowing Dutch and more and more Afrikaans I can hear similarities in that direction. Many people include Pomeranian and East Prussian in with Platt; I'm not enough of a linguist to know whether that's accurate or not. Berlin dialect is certainly sui generis. If you want to hear Platt, go to http://www.radiobremen.de/online/platt/

What estimable sentiments.

My grandmother was a non-Carpathian from German background (Lippisch) and I was raised with the same sentiments about Prussians. Her parents spoke Platt at home and joined an English-speaking rather than a Hochdeutsch-speaking church over here on the grounds that "it was all foreign anyway". Y'know how Paul says "neither Jew nor Greek"? Now I'm in a denomination full of Prussians (chokes? ve don't need no stinkin' chokes) with a small dose of Russian Volksdeutsche for variation.

I also recall a rather nasty joke by a German prof of mine about the Bavarian being the midpoint between the Austrian and the human being. As a Carpathian, I thought that was a bit harsh about the Osztraks, but then it was the Bavarians who let what's-his-name with the mustache (may his name and memory be blotted out) into Germany in the first place.

Gor' bless Armorica!

 

My father taking a break from being shot by Germans would talk to the odd one. He was of the opinion that he could speak better with the Dutch than the Germans.

He spoke an archaic dialect of German that originated just east of Frankfurt-on-Main that steeped for a couple hundred years on the eastern edge of European Russia, along the Volga River.

Apparently it was close to Pennsylvania Dutch, which is a German dialect.

 

Very funny, Bubba. All your fussin’ will stifle your hayseed intellect. Now let go of those teats, get up off that milk stool, get rid of the Redman’s, put a pinch or two of Garrett’s between each jaw, and take a walk to the corner grocery. Pull up a milk can next to the pickle barrel and engage the rustics in a challenging game of checkers.

As you struggle to win a game you can engage the eighth-grade level plebeians with your vast knowledge and wit. After a couple hours of being “Hee Hawed” and slapped on the back, you can strut down main street like a Bantam rooster, with your head held high and your chest thrust outward knowing you have just educated the masses. You should feel proud!

Now, go home and enjoy a meal of fried chickn,’ taters, chittlins, a dozen hoe cakes with blackstrap ‘lasses, and have a glass of muscadine wine. Make sure you use the outhouse before going to bed.

“Derned ole’ britches, told Ma not to replace the buttons with zippers. Where’s that ‘How To’ manual?”

Don’t do any heavy reading tonight.

“Deadburnit, I need to study The Little Golden Book of Fishes."

Don’t worry, that doctorate in marine biology will come soon enough and Drs. Fine and Ziffel will understand.

Now lie down and go to sleep listening to your favorite songs, County Bumpkin, Muleskinner Blues, and Welfare Cadillac.