Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

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At the risk of "horning in" if you go to

www.bibliofind.com and type in

the early church fathers

you will find a number of books.

 

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Bill, we could go around and around with this. For instance, you select Romans 9:5. Which version? The RSV says, "They are Israelites...to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen."

The KJV says "...Christ appeared in the flesh, who is God over all..." It's a punctuation problem. As you know there were no punctuation marks in the originals, they were added later by scribes and copyists. Another example is "...today you shall be with me in paradise," compared to "...I say to you today, you..."

Also, you choose John 1:1. Many theologians believe this was not in the original manuscripts but added after the Gospels were completed.

In John 20:20 some scholars believe this should not be "Ho theos (the God)" but just "theos (divine). So, Thomas said "My Lord the divine." As the Son of God, Jesus is divine (homoiousious.)

Now, how can Jesus, as a Mediator, be God Himself? To whom did Jesus pray? When Jesus was dead for three days was God then dead also? And, how can God sit on the right hand of Himself?

 

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The subjective nature of your studies is that "you" are deducing from objective research data certain conclusion. This statement is not an attempt to demean, as this is what any researcher will do. Someone else may look at your research and deduce--whether valid or not--something different.

Continue your studies, as this is not an attack. You want to finish by 65, right?

 

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===

Thankyou for responding.

Could I *please* have the location of your quote from Calvin where he denies the Trinity?



Now Jimmy you are giving me, "so and so says such and such."

Can you exegete?

One step of exegesis is a study of the text and of variant readings. You say that 1:1 of John may not be original . Please state your evidence for this.

Apply this same step to 20:28 [ not 20:20, that is a TV program ]. What is your textual evidence that theos there is anarthrous?

Another step of exegesis is determining authorial practice and usage. You refer to the punctuation problem in Rom 9:5. Which version you say?

Jimmy, exegesis is not looking at versions! You seem unaware of the common Pauline construction of doxologies. Apply that datum to this text, then tell me why the period should follow sarka.


And, have you not heard of the hypostatic union? What did Bethany teach you about fundamentalism if it did not acquaint you with Chalcedon and Phil 2:6,7?

Thanks,

 

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When Ignatius stood before Trajan he said "Thou art in error when thou callest the daemons of the nations gods. For there is but one God, who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that are in them; and one Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, whose kingdom may I enjoy."

No, no, no. I did not influence these views. The views existed before I was called to serve.

Well, I have neglected my studies for this. Now I need to go calling and visiting. Talk to you later.

 

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and all i wanted to know is if unk was getting e-mail to bill.....

 

Bill,

Is there a complete set? I'm most interested in the major ones from the first 400-600 years AD. Which set of volumes focuses on the era from the begining after the Apostles and runs to 400-600 AD? Please give me titles and editors so I can search for them if you have the time and patience to do so. I'm on a budget so spending 400+ dollars may not be an option.


Ps. Thanks Jimmy Clifton for the link.

 

Early fathers

Kevin,

It's not completely what you were asking for, but a nice place to start might be Holmes' _Apostolic Fathers_. It's a nice (and relatively inexpensive) paperback, with Greek pages facing English translation pages. You can get it new for a little over $20.

Dave

 

ROFLOL

 

Re: Early fathers

Thanks! I'll check it out. BTW I'm Kevin & my wife is Gail, thus kevingaily.

 

Jimmy said,

Bill said,

Bill said,

Jimmy said,

Now Jimmy, were you a unitarian when you were a student with Bethany? Did they know that? Do they know that now? I know the doctinal position of Bethany, and they would not even accept you as a believer if you are a unitarian. I highly doubt they would allow you to study with them or graduate if they knew you deny the Trinity.
The only way I see for them to have knowingly accepted this situation, given their doctrinal position, was to be so lacking in integrity that they did not care what you believed as long as you were paying their tuition, and now, supporting their school! That is deplorable.
On the other hand, how could you study with Bethany, support them and work for them, given their obvious "false doctrine" from your doctrinal vantage point? Is it the money?

 

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Jesus walked the earth ministering for three years. You say he is God. So God walked the earth for three years ministering. As he walked the earth He prayed to whom? Himself? So, if He prayed to God then there were two Gods. The one who walked the earth and the one in Heaven to whom He prayed.

 

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You can get series 1 and 2 of the Nicene and post Nicene Fathers , 28 vols, from Christianbook.com for $300. Dave's recommendation on the one volume Apostolic Fathers is good. The anteNicene Fathers I find less valuable. An excellent primary source too is Schaff's 3 vol set on the creeds of Christendom.

Whatever you do, get Athanasius and Augustine (on the Trinity) . They are the major representatives in the Latin and Greek churches in this time period. FYI, there is also out, but I don't have it, a commentary set based on citations from the Fathers.

An excellent sort of paper for a class is to follow a theme, as in these several of early writers. For example, compare Tertullian on the prolation of the Logos with Athanasius' definition of Nicaea.