BA Hons @ MDiv? B.D. @ What?

Re: Bill----

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Fine, be a showoff!

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Good luck! What course are you taking? The systematic theology course I am taking relies on Grundem who does give fair hearing to Arminianism but of course is a Calvinist and sees this as the most logical/Biblical view.

I am with you on OT. Open Theism is interesting but I am quite uncomfortable with aspects of it which seem to resolve problems with Arminianism & Calvinism by creating new ones. How can He be caught by surprise? What is the difference bewteen Him allegedly standing by while evil events occur and Him in Open T. deciding not to know so He simply knows the many choices we could make but not which one we will choose. It seems to somewhat reduce our all knowing God to the level of say a Zeus who is caught by surprise when human beings act.


North

 

okay okay

okay, Bill, but don't you think that if you were looking to teach theology as a lifetime career, don't you think you would try that too to have a competitive edge? It's SOOO competitive now. I have a good friend who teaches at Trinity AND Moody here in Chicago. He says the last position that opened at Moody, (MOODY!), was only open to PhD's at Ivy League schools. They had over 300 applicants, the majority of which was from schools overseas. !

 

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My wife says I have to get off and watch "Dr Mike" with her. I'll respond tomorrow.
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Re: okay okay

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OK, change your name to Karl Barth! You'll get scores of offers
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Re: okay okay

Academia in general is very difficult to secure full time tnure positions. There have been several articles over the last few years in US News' Graduate School Handbook. The new thing is to use more and more adjunct faculty rather than the old tenured type. There are folks who have been successfully employed in industry as industry is now more accepting of the skills it took to get a doctorate and seeing those as applicable to industry. Some PhD's in the articles were quite disillusioned. One worked in a coffee shop which she was happy with as it allowed her to write on woman's literature and she made more per hour than she would have working at a Community COllege and grading what she called substandard papers. Others bemoaned the fact that teaching at Comunity Colleges meant they were now damaged goods to the academic community who looked down on CC instructors and it meant they would be unlikely to get their foot in the door at a University.

Good luck. You have picked a tough field. Get a vision of victory like Joshua and go for it!

North

 

Thanks North...

This is honestly why I'm getting a teaching credential now. I'm moving to CA to a needy school district and they will let me in with a BA in education (so they tell me). I'm planning on just pursuing a teaching job either at the highschools or a junior college, and then over the summers working on something like a BD, MTh, or even a DMin, or PhD!!!

 

To Bill, North, Tom Head, etc.

How about this for "proof" that the B.D. can be seen as the equivalent of the M.Div? Claremont's requirements for the D.Min:
http://www.cst.edu/dminser.htm

I'm starting to lean in the direction of doing the B.D. If I decided to apply to a PhD in the States, the B.D. could not hurt~~especially in the UK domain where it is recognized. That is, if I wanted to use it for some purpose here in the States, it would simply stand for the courses that I took. In other words, if it is short of an M.Div. I would just transfer the all of the heaping, non MDiv courses I have taken into it, including the BD. However, since I'm such a star shooter, most any school that I would want to apply to would understand that the BD is not "just another BA."

???
I would have to do some kind of prior ministry service before getting into a D.Min. immediately, and I don't have that under my belt yet. But I could probably do the BD (U of London allows some of the modules even to be tested out of apparently) in a year to a 1.5 yrs starting now, and then "coast" into a PhD research program somewhere in the UK. Is there any reason to think it would not be adequate preparation? My MA shows that I can write a good thesis.

 

Re: okay okay

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From the perspective of the one doing the hiring probably yes,
the grad from the school with the better rep will have the better chance. My guess is there's more involved with the hiring in many cases than just where one went to school, though! But as to the effects of schooling, I have two copies of TEDS master theses in Theology. The MA is excellent and the writer after finishing his PhD now teaches at a well known seminary. The ThM thesis stinks! Its grammar, spelling, use of the literature, logic, and exegetics are bad! Grudem, himself, was the first reader; the theology of trinal relationships expressed by that ThM candidate exactly fits Grudem's own, what a surprise! . My point is, the school does not always make the man ( or woman); the alma mater is not always a guarantee of accomplishment or quality. There is not an exact correlation between a school's rep and a grad's quality!! But your inference contained in, "IF you were..." is correct.

Theology for me is not a "career." It is not done to earn a living. I don't learn about my God to get paid for it. Nothing wrong with not muzzling the ox, understand. But I bring to my love of my area my own feed bag. I don't need to live off what I learn. I don't learn to get, but to give. I don't do it for profit but for passion! Now, I must go back to my "tent making."

Forgive the TEDS reference, no general slur meant, it is just that I had these and am struck with their variance in quality from each other!

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To BD or not to BD?!?

Christopher:

Many years ago some British universities offered the BD programme for students who had earned a bachelor's in some other subject and the, for whatever reason, wanted training in religious studies. The exception has always been the very academic and rigourous London BD degree which is a first degree equal to a BA in theology/religious studies where such a degree is offered by other universities. Oxford and Cambrigde (and some of the older Scottish universities) used to offer the BD as a research degree of a standard slightly lower than a PhD. I think Oxbridge have since abandoned the degree. The BD and BTh can be found at many Welsh universities. Remember the London BD is awarded with or without 'honours'.

My view is that, depending on your proposed research topic, the majority of UK university theology/religious studies departments are likely to consider you for admission to a doctoral programme (PhD) and one or two now offer the ThD and DMin as well as the PhD. The ThD and DMin often require course work completion so I'm not quite sure how that would work for you if you are not a UK resident or could not visit the UK for supervision.

In the UK a degree in theology/religious studies is highly regarded in many walks of life not just teaching or the church. A good degree programme provides grounding in historical, philisophical, linguistic, analytical and a whole range of other skills. I know someone with a degree in theology who went straight into merchant/investment banking where many of these skills are needed. That's why she was accepted.

Hope this is of some help.

'telfax'

 

Re: To BD or not to BD?!?

Oxford still does have a BD as a research degree, but it is only available to Oxfiord graduates.

For distance learning in Theology one might look at the Open Learning BD and MTh courses offered by Spurgeon's College (the degrees come from the University of Wales):

http://www.spurgeons.ac.uk/index.htm

These will provide teaching as well as assessment. London only gives asessment plus some guidance as to suitable reading.


Malcolm S Jenner

 

Open Theological College

The Open Theological College (now part of University of Gloucestershire) offerd a BA (mainly by distance learning) in religious studies to people living anywhere in the world - I think!

'telfax'

 

Thanks guys

Thanks guys,

I'm "in and out" today so I won't be able to do more than a quick reply.
I have not yet looked in depth to Spurgeon's MTh or Open's BD. My impression with OU is that I would have to attend some classes in the UK in residency. The MTh's offered over there, as far as I can tell, would be just writing. Is my impression wrong here?

I'm aware that the U. of Wales at Lampeter has an MTh in Church History with a negotiable residency requirement, but it is too specifically focused on Church History for me. I have looked at the London BD because it is broader.

Again, my desire is not to do a BA because that is a "step back" whereas the BD leaves me with a better impression for a "quick breadth" degree via DL at the UK because it MAY replace an MDiv (in limited contexts) and it would indicate, after my prior work is transferred, that i have the breadth I need to begin a program WITH Uk residency. I'm needing DL options to get me to that goal.

I'll look into Spurgeon's, but I can't today!
many thanks,
Chris

 

I also may...

I also may just give up on courses and apply this fall to the UK schools. If the ThD offered courses, and I was accepted into a minimal residency program (1-2 years) it would be ideal. I would have no problem getting a topic between now and then if I was confident that would be the best path for getting in.

Yours,
Chris

 

More info

Christopher:

The Open Theological College is not the same as the UK Open University. Years ago only a few instititutions offered the MTh and it was rather like a more advanced bachelor's plus dissertation. Now many organizations offer the MTh. Some offer it as a research degree and others with a specialism - e.g. MTh in Early Church Studies, MTh in New Testament Studies and so on.

For a really difficult but thorough comprehensive study of OT and NT plus church history look at the Lambeth Diploma of Student in Theology (STh) awarded by the Archbishop of Canterbury. It can be done by research thesis if already a graduate in theology but if you take the prescribed syllabus you are required to undertake NT Greek, etc and sit timed written examinations. it is a tough programme and is regarded as equivalent to a hons degree at a British university. I'm not sure if you have to be an Anglican to take the programme.

'telfax'

 

'telfax'

thanks, i have time for one more question on this. is OTC a school that requires ANY residency? Does it offer an MTh, or does anyone besides U. of Wales at Lampeter (too specific) offer one that has a breadth of courses (about a year's worth) and then a thesis? I have been calling schools and most of those I have called, Belfast B Col., ICC, LBC, all do it "just by thesis." Is OTC any different? Do you know if Spurgeon's has DL courses?

I'll look into the Lambeth Diploma of Student in Theology.

cg

 

I just sent an inquiry to Spurgeon's. From the looks of it, it may be just about right. How respected is Spurgeon's?

 

Take a good look

Christopher:

You need to go look at each theology/religious studies department. For example, Cardiff University (University of Wales) offers an MTh with a range of majors - e.g. MTh in bliblical studies; MTh in chaplaincy studies; MTh in pastoral theology; MtH in Christian doctrine, etc.

You probably know this but all you have to do to get into an British university web site is go www.durham.ac.uk and then follow the link to theology/religious studies to see if the institution has a department. So, another example for Birmingham university (it has a very strong theology dept) would be www.bham.ac.uk and Lancaster (excellent dept) www.lancs.ac.uk

'telfax'

 

Near as I can remember, Spurgeon's offers the only Levicoff-approved non-U.S. distance learning Th.M.; that should be worth something.


Cheers,

 

A point of clarification:

The MTh programs offered by Spurgeon's College are in no way related to the Open Theological College. The information to this effect provided in Bear's Guide is actually misinformation. The BA program offered through Spurgeon's is offered in cooperation with the Open Theological College. However, the open learning-based MTh programs in Applied Theology, Urban Mission, and Baptist and Anabaptist Studies are exclusively Spurgeon's courses. The MTh in Preaching is offered in collaboration with the College of Preachers.

As far as the reputation of Spurgeon's College: It is fair to characterise the school as the the "flagship" Baptist seminary of Europe (it is the largest, in terms of enrollment). It is widely respected throughout Africa, Australia, and Canada. Former Spurgeon's faculty have made an impressive mark here in the states, including recently deceased George Beasley-Murray, who, after leaving Spurgeon's, served as professor of NT at Southern Seminary in Louisville; Lewis Drummond, an American who serves as professor of Evangelism at Beason; and Michael Quicke, who a couple of years ago assumed the professorship in homiletics at Northern Seminary in Lombard, IL.

All of this being said, Christopher, if your interest is in "pure" systematic theology, or doctrinal studies, Spurgeon's does not offer their MTh in this subject area through DL.

Cory Seibel