Are RA DL flash-in-the-pan schools sub-standard?

I thought that ABET does not accredit graduate programs as the bachelors degree is considered the first professional degree for engineering programs. Does a graduate program inherit quality from an accredited undergrad program? Are the graduate programs of insitutions automatically considered flash-in-the-pan quality simply because ABET does not accredit them?

 

Actually, your statement is correct. Although ABET only accredits undergraduate degrees, a graduate program from a school that has ABET accredited undergraduate programs is of high quality.

My "flash in the pan" comment was directed to 100% online virtual schools with no B&M presence. I support DL, but only if it is offered by a B&M school with mostly tenured professors that conduct research in their field.

 

Speaking as one who has been involved in prepping for a site visit by the NCA, I can promise you that there is more to it than that and that the folk are indeed concerned with the quality of faculty among many other things.

For those interested, you might do a search online for a university's self-study, which is an essential part of preparing for initial accreditation or for renewal.

Here's one that I found from a quick search: http://www.admin.mtu.edu/admin/nca/report/index.htm
havn't done a complete review of this doc, but it certainly lists the areas of review.

Regards,
GME

 

I did visit this site, and went into the faculty and tenured area. It stated the tenuring numbers, and the school's plan - for this specific school. (I think I am reading it correctly)

I have been told (and I have not confirmed with the school), that some this is not a requriement to have tenured faculty at RA schools. I see that this school does have it, but if it is above and beyond the RA requirements, I do not think that one example of a school going above the RA requirements fits the rule that RA is the only requirement for quality.

 

I did a quick search and here is an example - UoP is 95% part time faculty - interesting article about how they have a different model........

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i10/10a02901.htm

"Ms. Tanguay, who is a member of the American Association of University Professors' national committee on accreditation of universities and colleges, even questions whether Phoenix and other national, for-profit institutions should be eligible to seek accreditation from the Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association, which has accredited the University of Phoenix and its online programs. "If we're going to continue to have people believe in accreditation, then accreditors have to come clean that these are different institutions," she says. "

 

<<not a requriement to have tenured faculty at RA schools. [/B][/QUOTE]

Quite true. A number of accredited schools do not have tenure (mine doesn't). Generally, however, the accreditors are interested in the number of full time vs part time instructors.

 

<<I did a quick search and here is an example - UoP is 95% part time faculty - interesting article about how they have a different model........>>

It's worth noting, I think, that this article is from 2002. In the last half-decade at least some accreditors have moved away from firm guidelines on fulltime/parttime (much to the chagrin of faculty organizations) toward outcome-based evaluations (part of this movement, by the way, is reflected by the use of the term 'learner' for student).

Here's a link for a discussion (again from 2002) about this movement.

www.abor.asu.edu/4_special_programs/lce/accreditors_lce.htm

 

It's not just about having part-time faculty, it's about the fact that these professors do not conduct research in their respective fields. Some of them hold multiple positions, teaching in a variety of fields while at the same time holding down 9-5 jobs.

By not conducting research, these professors in many ways are no more qualified than the students they teach. Anyone can read a textbook and reiterate the information. This is generally called a "teacher" and found in elementary and high schools.

Tenured or full-time, research-focused professors, generate new knowledge, which they pass on to their students. The professors benefits, the university benefits and the students benefit.

 

I agree, but wanted to show one example of what I was meaning with the difference between professional and RA standards. I think many many examples could illistrate the differences, I just wanted to show one.

 

I know of no research in this, but I would predict that a well-designed study would show a significant negative correlation between research ability and teaching ability.

Regards,
GME

 

Program Accreditation

"Tenured or full-time, research-focused professors, generate new knowledge, which they pass on to their students. The professors benefits, the university benefits and the students benefit"

That or graduate students teach their classes. I would say 30% of the courses I took at traditional universities were taught by graduate students (and I completed well over 100 semester hours).

You make a good point, but I still think your statements are biased.

"That is why Touro, Phoenix, NCU, Walden and the rest are NOT AACSB or ABET accredited"

NCU is applying for ACBSP (http://www.acbsp.org/index.php?mo=st&op=ld&sid=s1_025about&stpg=141) which is CHEA recognized

Walden holds CCNE accreditation and is applying for CACREP and CEPH accreditation (http://www.waldenu.edu/c/About/About_231.htm)

And Devry holds ABET accreditation in many of it's engineering technology degree offerings (I know you didn't mention them, but they would fit in the category of the for-profit, non-tenured faculty model)


http://www.chea.org/search/actionProg.asp

DeVry University, Chicago Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (BS)
Chicago, IL

DeVry University, Columbus Computer Engineering Technology (BSCET)
Columbus, OH

DeVry University, Columbus Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (BS)
Columbus, OH

DeVry University, Decatur & Alpharetta Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (BS)
Decatur, GA

DeVry University, Dupage Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (BS)
Dupage, IL

DeVry University, Fremont Computer Engineering Technology (BSCET)
Fremont, CA

DeVry University, Fremont Electronics Engineering Technology (BS)
Fremont, CA

DeVry University, Irving Computer Engineering Technology (BSCET)
irving, TX

DeVry University, Irving Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (BS)
irving, TX

DeVry University, Kansas City Computer Engineering Technology (BSCET)
Kansas City, MO

DeVry University, Kansas City Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (BS)
Kansas City, MO

DeVry University, Long Beach Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (BS)
Long Beach, CA

DeVry University, North Brunswick Electronic Engineering Technology (BSEET)
North Brunswick, NJ

DeVry University, North Brunswick Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (AS)
North Brunswick, NJ

DeVry University, Phoenix Computer Engineering Technology (BSCET)
Phoenix, AZ

DeVry University, Phoenix Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (BS)
Phoenix, AZ

DeVry University, Pomona Electronic(s) Engineering Technology (Main Campus) (BS)
Pomona, CA

DeVry University, West Hills Electronics Engineering Technology (BSEET)
West Hills, CA

So if NCU and Walden earn the professional accreditations they are applying for, will you change your tune?

 

Professors are supposed to direct students to the latest state of knowledge in the field. Regardless of how poor a professor is at "teaching", that same professor who conducts research in the field will be aware of the "state of art" in that field and will pass it along to students.

How can someone teach the latest in "organisational behaviour in SME's" if he/she is not conducting research in the field? Research goes beyond textbooks. It goes into the latest scholarly peer-reviewed articles available. It goes into the depth that "teachers" cannot.

How is a student supposed to obtain the latest knowledge in the field from someone who is not in the field and using a generic textbook from 1992?

Look at the Harvard Case Study Method. Havard Business School develops almost 400 new cases every year through research professors at the business school. These are the latest scholarly works available anywhere. How can a "textbook" student at "Virtual University" compare to an HBS student? He can't.

 

Re: Program Accreditation

I think this is very interesting. I have never had a course taught by a graduate student. I wonder what the average is.

I think the next discussion would need to be the differences in professional accreditors. In my mind, there is only one professional business accreditation that matters to quality schools, and that is AACSB, not the others. (I am not sure about the other majors / schools).

I do believe though that AACSB is coming around to non-traditional models, but they will hold to quality standards as well. For example, faculty do not need to be "participatory", meaning not only research, but it can fall into other categories - such as serving on committees, etc.

 

Re: Re: Program Accreditation

This is interesting. I also have never had a course taught by a graduate student, although professors have often used teaching assitants (TA's) to run labs and grade tests and papers.

AACSB is the gold standard for business accreditation and the one that quality schools seek to obtain.

 

Personally I would rather be taught by an instructor that is actually working in the fielf of study, rather than a lifelong educator who has never actually held a job in the subject matter being taught. Seems to me that an instructor that is active in the field is far more likely to be be up to speed on "state of the art" developments.

 

I agree with you. Give me someone that built a business over a researcher ANYDAY. In fact, I demand it.


Well worth reading:

Document title
How business schools lost their way
Author(s)
BENNIS Warren G. ; O'TOOLE James ;
Harvard Business Review 2005

Emphasis mine

 

I don't think this is in question, but there needs to be a minimum education experience standard - in my opinion. I would prefer to have a person with a doctorate and industry experience then a person with a doctorate alone. But the part time requirements are different, and in most cases, do not require a doctorate.

My issue is that the part time requirements are a Master's only. After going through a doctoral experience, the depth of the experience is dramatically different then the Master's level.

This seems OK in the cases of a small percentage of over-load type classes are taught by the part timers, with less of the requirements, but when it is 95%, that is different.

 

Note that Warren Bennis is renowned in his field for industry AND research. I consider him both, but the most valuable for the research he conducts - and advised many presidents based on his research.

 

Nor do we aspire to. If I could (both) afford and had the time to attend Harvard (not to mention that pesky matter of being admitted) I'd be at Harvard in a minute instead of logging into Touro on my laptop.

Accredited, RA DL degrees serve a perfectly valid function for accomplished professionals wanting to fill the square, someone wanting to finish a degree that for whatever reason (i.e. travel)cannot attend a resident class, or simply preference. Trust me, we're well aware of the tradeoffs.

Dave