Why isn't Terri Shiavo's husband on trial?

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by LauraDay, Mar 21, 2005.

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  1. Mr. Engineer

    Mr. Engineer member

    Little industry? What about Intel's "golden deal" with NM? I heard that was pretty much a bust for Rio Rancho as NM pretty much gave away the farm to get Intel to come (and they are taking full advantage of that - lol).

    Yes, I would love to keep those Texan lawyers out of Cali too - too much of that drawl in the courtroom can get on anyone's nerves :D
     
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Well, an Intel plant does not an industrial economy make. Besides, as it turns out, chip making is NOT a "clean industry" so there's opposition to expanding it here. The issue is water, as always.

    Texan lawyers biggest handicap is the shortage of qualified Texan/English interpreters.
     
  3. Mr. Engineer

    Mr. Engineer member

    Wow - someone that actually knows their industries. From the outside, Semi plants look clean. But in reality, they produce product that is quite a bit more toxic than a smelting plant (what is a little PH3 or BCl3 between friends?). Fairchild used to dump their solvents right into the ground in MT View - that is why the people in Mt View and Sunnyvale cannot drink the ground water (very toxic).

    Yes, NM gave away the farm. I did a case study on Intel for a class at CSU-DH. It seems that water is a major problem (semi plants use gobs of water) - along with other toxics. To top it off, the schools are pretty much overcrowded.

    Isn't Philips Semi still in the outskirts of ALB? (don't ask me to spell it - lol). It was the last time I was there in 1997.

    W.
     
  4. Kit

    Kit New Member

    There have been affadavits from several nurses, the only name I recall at the moment is Carol Ayer. There have also been some from CNAs who claim Terri is in fact responsive. Terri's childhood friend, Sherry, claimed to do her own 'blink tests' with Terri and claimed Terri did respond consistently. She also claimed Terri repeatedly attempted to raise her arms in response to statements about dancing, one of her favorite activities before her incapacitation. There are also the reports as well as video and audio from her family and clergy.

    As to her diagnosis of PVS, several doctors do not agree. They also don't agree that her cerebral cortex is completely gone, since that diagnosis was made based on a CT scan. One is Dr. William Hammesfahr, a nobel prize nominee neurologist who claims he has examined Terri and spent at least 10 hours with her. He asserts that she has minimal consciousness and is responsive. Others who disagree are named in this article:

    Starving for a Fair Diagnosis

    These doctors should be heard and considered by the Florida court but apparently they are not being considered. Why? What if they are right? Remember that Terri has not had an MRI or a PET scan, her PVS diagnosis is based on a CT scan. Michael Schiavo, acting as her legal guardian and sole spokesperson, refused to allow an MRI or PET scan. Now it might be argued that PVS diagnoses have happened in the past without such technology, but it is not common practice to do that today since the advanced technology does exist now. After all, there was also a time in history when a catatonic state or even a heartbeat not perceptible to human ears was "diagnosed" as stone dead.

    Florida law defines PVS as:

    (12) "Persistent vegetative state" means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:

    (a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind.

    (b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.

    The doctor and nurse named above, as well as those in the linked article, claim Terri would be in much better condition today if she had had the kind of rehabilitative therapy that was denied to her over the years. I realize that her family, clergy, and childhood friend may be biased by hope, but the testimony and affadavits from the doctors and nurses do seem to add credibility to their reports and videos. I mean is anyone really arguing that Terri has been unconscious all this time? It seems the argument is about her level of cognitive ability, but she does have some purposeful interaction with the environment and others around her.

    It also seems strange to me that mere food and water is considered 'artificial life support', but apparently Florida law does define it that way:

    (10) "Life-prolonging procedure" means any medical procedure, treatment, or intervention, including artificially provided sustenance and hydration, which sustains, restores, or supplants a spontaneous vital function.

    But then why is court also denying her any water or ice chips by mouth, which would be completely natural sustenance rather than artificial? Are they defining any such interaction as "artificial" since she is unable to raise the water or ice chips to her mouth herself? I don't know. But if they are defining that as "artificially provided sustenance and hydration" then doesn't it seem that under Florida law everyone's newborn baby is on artifical life support? Yet it isn't legal in Florida to dehydrate or starve to death your newborn. Another thing to consider is the reports that she is now being given morphine "for pain". Since it has been claimed by some that she is incapable of feeling the pain of her dehydration and starvation then what is the purpose of the morphine for pain?

    But again, that's not the bottom line. The fact is she left no living will so no one truly knows her wishes. So how can the argument be based on a claim that to die this way is complying with Terri's wishes? The establishment of that as "fact" is by court order with no documentation, based on testimony of her legal husband who has repeatedly changed his statements regarding his legal wife's wishes over the years.

    I am not saying Michael Schiavo is "evil", but there are questions and certainly conflicted interests on his part. He is now and has been for some time a husband in name only. Although Florida law does not recognize common law marriage, the fact is he already has the equivalent of a common-law wife and two children. Yet under Florida law he remains the sole legal guardian for Terri because he remains her "husband" on paper. Not by Florida legal definition but certainly in practice it's the same as someone speaking for and acting as legal guardian for their incapacitated ex-spouse.


    Kit
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2005
  5. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Kit,

    I think you perpetuate some falsehoods dispelled by the reasonable Cathy Young.

    I heard Yyers' spiel on the Sean Hannity show. She said that Michael Schiavo made the statements she claims he made before the entire staff of the hospice. Not Hannity or anyone else has to my notice made any attempt to gain corroboration from any of that staff.

    Hammesfahr the Nobel candidate?

    IOW, a letter that could have been written for another and by Barney Frank or Barbara Boxer.


    Dubious doctor touted as Nobel Prize nominee by Hannity, Scarborough
     
  6. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Kit

    As pointed out by Decimon those points are indeed false. 7 Neurologists along with Terri's parents in their court papers agree that Terri is in a permanent vegitative state. The one dissenting voice you mention has never, himself, examined Terri although he did spend some time in the same room with her.

    The Nurse you mention was discredited by Judge Greer and according to her those statements were made in front of other staff none of who confirm her statements.

    The break down of her Cortex has been confirmed in brainscans and Mr Schiavo is insisting on an autoposy to dispell misinformation.

    It is a sad situation for all involved, Hopefully they'll be able to find peace at some point
     
  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    interesting new development

    The federal Court of Appeals has decided to re examine the evidence. I would assume that the Court will require the feeding tube to be replaced until the matter can be heard?

    I'm not sure what the Court actually intends to do; appellate courts in general aren't set up to take testimony. When it has to be done, such as when the U.S. Supreme Court tries claims between state governments, the Court usually appoints a special master to conduct the hearing.

    In this case, I don't see how they can do that because trial jurisdiction lies with the Disctrict Court.
     
  8. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    That's interesting. It's discomforting to take his side but I have tried to imagine his position and I thought he might keep his insistance on a cremation to eliminate the inevitable interpretations and misinterpretations of what is found. I'm doubting that much of what is found in the autopsy will be conclusive.

    I yesterday saw a news headline saying Terri Schiavo was officially dead. That obviously was not so. Maddening.
     
  9. Kit

    Kit New Member

    Certainly not my intent to 'perpetuate falsehoods', thanks for the heads-up on Dr. Hammesfahr . However, it looks like there was some corroboration of Carla Ayer (Iyer?):

    Heidi Law

    Carolyn Johnson

    At the sidebar on the right, this link provides the full texts of various affadavits filed on behalf of Terri Schiavo:

    http://www.terrisfight.org/documents.html

    Maybe Dr. Hammesfahr has some sort of agenda, I don't know. But I also don't know what he or all these other people have to gain by filing these affidavits. But it is understandable how it could reflect negatively on them in their own careers. Affadavits are not to be taken lightly, they are filed under threat of perjury. These people aren't related to Terri and don't know her family personally, so why would they put their own careers on the line unless it was something they absolutely believed to be true? They can't all have an agenda.

    Again, there are also the questions of why the morphine if she supposedly is incapable of feeling pain, why was the husband-on-paper's hearsay ruled as the fact of Terri's wishes, and why is a person who is effectively an ex-spouse considered a valid legal guardian and sole spokesperson?


    Kit
     
  10. Kit

    Kit New Member

    Actually that's not entirely his choice although it's certainly being portrayed that way by his lawyer Mr. Felos. I cannot find the reference at the moment to link, but reportedly under Florida law an autopsy is required before any cremation in cases where there are any open questions as to cause of injury or death. Certainly understandable, and it's probably the same in other states.

    Yes, the whole thing is terribly and horribly sad. I hope the same peace for all involved.

    Kit
     
  11. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    If so then that's fine with me. What's gotten under my skin is the lack of followup to these allegations by the news organizations, radio hosts, etc. They have the resources to do the followups and you needn't be Colombo to see what are the logical next steps to determining the credibility of the charges made.
     
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    latest from the 11th circuit

    The Court denied the parents' petition. Again.

    With strong words for Congress and the President, too, BTW.
     
  13. David Williams

    David Williams New Member

    Thanks Kit and everyone for the references. I found the videos on Terrisfight especially riveting. I sort of think the issue of classifying her as in a vegitative state is a straw man. Her functional abilities are more important. I saw her CT on TV over the weekend and while as a psychologist I'm not privileged to interpret them I see them all the time. I was impressed by the very slight amount of cortex about the perimeter and the wide area of cerebrospinal fluid in the center where you normally see cortical convolutions. I would have liked to see more of the video where she is asked to open her eyes. Especially an attempt to determine her capacity for reliable responding. She gave the appearance of intentionality but its difficult to differntiate what you see there from an orienting response. Another thought I had while watching the videos is I'd like to see a controlled effort to assess her response to her mother v. an entire stranger to see if she is making a differential response to a familiar person. In order to draw anything like a conclusion you'd need to do this a number of times and look for a pattern v. random respondings. Of course, the clock is running out and none of this is going to happen.
     

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