Why Euros hate Israel? Rage of the Repressed Anti-Semite...

Hi Tom,

I see your point. I remember reading somewhere in this site that the US wouldn't recognize their government during the second world war while they were occupied by the nazis. I guess this didn't endear us to the French. Why don't you think we were willing to recognize them?

 

If Saddam were to invade and capture Isreal (I know, highly unlikely) and set up his own occupying government, I can assure you we would not recognize that government. Same thing with Vichy France. It was a Nazi puppet regime set up to repress the French people, and France was glad that not only did we fail to recognize it, we obliterated it. However, the French being French, this fact is irrelevant today.

And really, I can see their point. I mean, why should they worry about Saddam when they have the Maginot Line to protect them?

 

Western

You have to be western
to define being right--
Then,
You have to be American to embody right--
Then,
You have to accept American Will as orthodoxy.

***
But,
Curiously,
Why is there a sense that we are being somehow wronged.
By whom?
For what?

***
Who are the victims here?

***
Alright--may be those in the majority of the world are wrong?
But, even our allies can't be right anymore?
However, we are always right?
The Iraqis are wrong.
OK
The Arabs are wrong.
OK
The Muslims are wrong.
OK
The Europeans are (partly) worng.
OK
The French are wrong
OK
The Germans are wrong
OK
The Belgians are wrong
Ok
The Americans are right
OK
But,
Are we ever wrong?

KKA

 

Re: Western

alt.poetry.bad
Jack

 

Having read the first two postings by Orson, I confess that I'm entirely unclear about his motives for starting this thread or his genuine opinions on the subject. The fact that he hasn't responded to any of the subsequent postings makes things only murkier. Bill Dayson and Tom Head have made execellent points and I don't think that I can improve upon them except in suggesting that the grip of French Postmodernism seems firmly in place, at least in regards to those who are allowed into print in the world of European journalism. This is not to suggest that French Postmodernism accurately reflects the opinions of the general French citizen (or European citizen for that matter).

Does antisemitism exist? Of course (so obvious, question doesn't require asking) .
Orson - you've said that "...the antisemites can blame the Jews for the rise of Hitler..." Are you quoting someone or putting forth your own theory?
"We have Auschwitz, you have Jenin." . . . Orson, are you saying these two are equivalent?
Also, Orson, you've invoked the name of Freud yet not used quotation marks or cited references. It's poor practice.
Jack

 

The French government doesn't recognize the Vichy regime as legitimate, either. They regard it as an enemy occupation. The German government has also condemned the Third Reich in the harshest possible terms.

French law is much tougher on Nazism than American law is--it's actually illegal to sell Nazi war memorabilia in France (something that recently provoked a lawsuit against Yahoo!), but perfectly legal in the States. And in Germany, whistling the Horst Wessel March can get you thrown in prison.

I'm inclined to think that the French and German governments are benevolent, modern, and democratic governments, but sometimes try to sound humanitarian at the expense of actually accomplishing humanitarian foreign policy objectives. I think antisemitism is a growing problem in Europe. I think a desire to remain independent from the United States, which can be traced back (here again) to de Gaulle's NATO concerns, sometimes encourages the French government to make unwise foreign policy decisions. I think Germany is also trying to establish itself as an independent world power. But I don't believe for one minute that it's remotely accurate or fair to suggest that the current French and German governments have any love for Nazism. They know, better than most Americans, the damage it has caused.


Cheers,

 

Bill--

Allow my reply to begin succinctly: what the f%*k?
A "provoction?" But of course. What else is the "off-topic" area for? Your ss number? Steyn is ethnically Jewish--Canadian by birth--US resident by occupation--and travels and writes a fair amount of the time in Europe. If you doubt these constitute qualifications, then just say so.

For "Rage of the Repressed Anti-Semite," c.f. Feud's "Civilization and Its Discontents.

"If anti-Semitism is wrong, then so is an attempt to stereotype Europeans as being anti-Semites." All right. As Lewis Carroll wrote: "'Speak English!' said the Eaglet. 'I don't know the meaning of half those long words, and I don't believe you do either!'" Well then don't bother replying to this thread if you can't grasp the obviousness of reality--I'm expected back on planet Earth now.

--Orson
PS I've studied in England and lived in Amsterdam--so I too am permitted an opinion about Steyn's thoughts.

 

It was not...

poetry.

 

"against the Europeans?"

No, against the morally corrupt French and German regimes.
Some of us are well aware that there is more to "Europe" than the rich and preening egomaniacs of Paris and Berlin.

Tom Head: I don't agree with you, but your post is well stated.
Here's what I think are the sources of the genteel Jew-hatred of the current representatives of the Europe Americans notice:

Residual historic Jew-hatred among secular Europeans, fueled for a few by overt pro-Nazi views (NPD, DVP, FN, possibly the Freiheitliche in Austria, Carnogursky's party in Slovakia, one Hungarian party (MSzP? not sure) with minor occasional representation in parliament.

Residual religion-based hatred toward Jews and Judaism, probably more in the "other Europe"--but that's a guess. The Muslim minorities in "Western Europe" are the notorious exception.

Profound hostility to the state of Israel, which serves as a respectable permutation of historic Jew-hatred (whatever legitimate criticism can be offered of this or that Israeli policy), and has been fueled on the left by decades of Soviet propaganda. "Anti-Zionism" serves as a code word for a basic dislike of Jews. Apostate and deracinated Jews sometimes serve as heralds of this (one thinks of Bruno Kreisky years ago in Austria, or Noam Ch***** here); they are then applauded for their "moral courage" for being latter-day kapos.

Cultural hostility to the US, often fueled by vociferous unassimilated Muslim minorities toward whom the generic left in France and Germany condescend with "politically correct" attitudes (somebody's got to haul away the garbage, after all). This dovetails with a legitimate desire for strategic and economic independence from the "sole superpower."

Am I "biased" as a Zionist and philo-Semite? Absolutely.

 

I resent it when you try to set us against each other. The resulting hostilities can be lasting and can damage this group.

I'm still interested in your attempt to tie France, Germany and Belgium's criticism of the impending war in Iraq to Nazi collaboration, to anti-Semitism and to hatred of Israel. I think that the assertion is fanciful. If it is going to be made credible, the dots need to be connected by coherent argument.

It's a lot more straightforward to take these countries reservations on their merits, isn't it? Launching an armed invasion of another nation is not something that can be taken lightly or rushed into blindly. If there are arguments against the adventure, they need to be heard.

If there is some kind of underlying dynamic at work fueling the opposition, I would argue that it's these countries own nationalism and internal politics.

Frankly, I'm hesitant to try to psychoanalyse an entire continent and to dismiss their views as driven by character flaws, repression or mental illness. That's just a way to avoid having to take their ideas seriously.

 

I for one really don't care what the views of France and Germany are towards our war in Iraq. The only view of Belgium I really care about are the waffles at IHOP. France has some good cheese, and German food is kind of tasty. They were not attacked on September 11. They are not at war. Their buildings still stand, and they have not buried our dead. I don't really see why anyones opinion matters outside of ours.

Iraq is a terrorist regime, with ties to groups that would love nothing more than to kill our children. I don't care if France and Germany hate anyone, love anyone or have dealings with anyone because they don't matter. They are simply insignificant. This is our war, it would be nice if allies remembered what we did for them but they ain't that necessary for us to win. Their opinion certainly isn't necessary for whether our country needs to defend itself. We decide that. If you are an American and don't think Saddam is a threat and that we should not attack, I disagree but respect it. If you are French, German, Belgian, United Arab Emirate, or Lithuanian....To quote the Rock "it doesn't matter what you think, know your role and shut your mouth."

 

It's important that the United States be widely perceived and trusted to be a protector of freedom and security around the world, not to be seen as a threat to those very things. If enough of the world starts seeing us as being a danger, they will start to ally against us.

If we aren't defending a world in which everyone is free to open their mouths, what reason does the rest of the world have for supporting us?

 

This is an excellent point--and as anyone remotely familiar with French and German politics can attest to, the political environment is incredibly diverse over there. Gerhardt Schroeder has a 31% approval rating. French president Jacques Chirac had to fight off a challenge from Jean-Marie Le Pen, who can be described as slightly to the right of Pat Buchanan. There is no collective body politic that makes all of a given administration's decisions. Bush has done some things that I disagree with (I didn't vote for the man and probably won't next time either), and you will find people in France and Germany who disagree with what their leaders are doing.

One final point: Folks here are saying "Europe." NATO is made up of 19 nations, of which 17 are European. Only three of those 17 European NATO allies actively oppose the war in Iraq.


Cheers,

 

Tom: Right. That was a wrongly omitted part of my gravamen--that too many people here think that only France and Germany matter in Europe--something on which they agree with--you guessed it--the French and the Germans. We are looking at a long-term realignment of alliances with all of Europe.
While I'm at it, Lithuania is supporting us.

 

Re: It was not...

I'm glad we agree. It seems, however, that your wordwrap needs to be reset and you asterisk key is stuck. If you need help with these I'm certain that someone on the forum can be of assistance.
Jack

 

Orson - Instead of quoting Steyn, Lileks, Freud and Carroll and then making obscure comments on these quotations, why don't you try to state, simply and directly, your own opinion(s) on the subject. BTW, I don't think it matters that you've lived in England and Amsterdam, does it? Everyone is entitled to an opinion on this subject regardless of where they've lived, no?
Jack

 

...and besides, the governments of both the UK and the Netherlands support the Bush administration on Iraq, so that wouldn't really be relevant to this conversation.


Cheers,

 

To Billdayson, I respect your opinion and I think the notion of the world loving us is a noble one. But frankly, who cares what their opinion is? Let's face it, talking to the UN is just lip service. Without our forces the UN is irrelevant anyway.

Why is it so important that France, Germany and the countries aligned with Iraq see us as anything. Allies would be nice but it is our freedom and our way of life that is paramount. I, and apparently our president, could care less about the opinion of people who were not attacked. They obviously don't care about our dead. We do.

France and Germany only matter because they have veto power, we asked for help because our people died, our buildings were blown up when our airplanes were taken hostage. They used the veto power to say no. We don't need their permission for anything.

The other NATO allies are with us. Even if they were not, we are not the aggressor here. The attack is in response to 9/11. If they stand with us, fantastic. If they do not, who cares?

As far as a beacon for freedom, why don't we ask the cheese-sucking american haters how they felt in WWII? They were pretty close with Germany then also.

BTW they are certainly free to open their mouths. It was a joke. I can't get the smilies to work ;>.

 

Enough quibbling. What of Luxembourg?

 

To me it's not so much a matter of what people think, or not think, that matters. It's a matter of honor and rightness that is paramount. We should try to get along with others, and when we fight it should be for good. Then let the chips fall where they may. If what we are doing in this or any other endevour is truely noble then if others oppose us then so be it. God help us, though, if what is "right" is simply self justification of our actions. Not that I'm implying that the ordeal with Iraq is, I just wanted to make a moral point. I am a vet. I was in the US Army for four years. Two of which were in Germany from '87-'89. I was/am willing to fight for freedom, the oppressed, and the protection of the innocent. I don't want to appear idealistic, though perhaps I am