What's cooking for the future in the world of online doctoral programs?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by thomas_jefferson, Jun 12, 2010.

  1. warguns

    warguns Member

    I contacted the online "chat" at at Sullivan. It had no information.
  2. I am not Tony and I didn't ask about any doctorate specifically. Maybe you could revisit the original question? You're not contributing anything worthwhile to the conversation.
  3. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    No, Dave, I do not know who "Tom" is. I have never posted here under a pseudonym or any identity other than my own. Some months ago I responded to a couple of inquiries about our upcoming conflict management doctoral program, which was folded into our upcoming management doctoral program. I assumed that this was an inquiry about the progress pf that degree.

    Those who are familiar with my posts over the past nine years in Degreeinfo know that I have never shilled for any of the schools for which I have worked: Cal State San Bernardino (until 2004), Northeastern Illinois University (until 2008) or Sullivan University (since 2008). In fact, a perusal of my posts will show the numerous times that I have recommended programs for which I have no affiliation and will show little or no attempts at recruiting students into my own programs. I will continue to answer questions that are addressed to me or are relevant to my areas of expertise, but I have no need to shill. Our university does fine without me having to do that. It is regionally accredited by SACS and we have remarkably high real-world employment rates of our graduates in the areas of their degrees.

    Our initial PharmD class was 75 students, chosen from 350 applicants. Our next class was 85 students selected from 300 applicants. Our program was selected as a model program by the ACPE (Accrediting Council for Pharmacy Education). Every few weeks, our College of Pharmacy hosts visitors from other universities that have been sent there by ACPE.

    Our target audience for the new doctoral degree is not the young student with a fresh masters degree holder looking for that first assistant professor position. We have been approached by a number of mid-career professionals looking to develop research skills to become practitioner-scholars, in order to advance in their organizations, perform consulting or teach as adjuncts. None were interested in becoming full-time faculty (although a few are administrators at educational institutions).

    Since warguns provides us with neither his name, his institution, his credentials or any knowledge of my programs, it is hard for me to take his insults seriously. Frankly, I will listen more closely to SACS and ACPE. If he has such a low regard for his own institution that he counsels students to go elsewhere, then maybe he should take his own advice and find an institution that meets his standards.
  4. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Actually, I should have mentioned that this degree is not even being offered yet, so it would be a silly time to shill.
  5. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Thanks for sharing this, Tom. I appreciate getting that feedback. What would you like to accomplish here? Perhaps there is something we can work on together.
  6. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Thanks, Tony. So the target is people who have money but no real need for doctorate... The application you are describing seems very similar to what a masters degree should provide.
  7. Is it typical of this Dave Wagner character to hijack threads? He's being rude and acerbic which wouldn't be a problem for me if he actually had something of value to say. He's contributing nothing in regards to the OP. He has queer personal issues surrounding the issue of mid-career doctorates which might be an excellent topic he could start in his own thread.

    I'm going to respectfully step out of the conversation unless a moderator can fix this Dave situation. :)
  8. DBA_Curious

    DBA_Curious New Member

    Dave, I'm usually supportive of you but what's the point of this? It seems unnecessarily antagonistic.

    We live in a free market society (or a close approximation). If some person feels that a Sullivan PhD is enough of a differentiator for his or her resume, and Sullivan meets the requirements to offer such a program, why would you judge it to be lacking.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into your posts but you seem to be taking an ultra-utilitarian approach to what is and isn't a valid higher educational opportunity. How many degrees from Tier 1 schools would pass muster if utility were the ultimate metric? Not many...
  9. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Well, the target is people who would like more money or a career enhancement and who have no real need for a full-time tenure-track faculty position.

    The master degree provides advanced training in a particular discipline. The doctoral degree provides the ability to conduct original research and to contribute to the knowledge base of the discipline. The doctoral degree also provides a level of status that the masters does not.

    Your views on the usefulness and necessity of doctorates and the conditions under which they should be pursued have been made quite clear and I respect your views. My institution is responding to those who have a different view and different goals.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2010
  10. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    I can't see where Dr. Pina has in any way attempted to promote his school. He answered a question that was from a legitimate member, not a shill. I did not read any kind of sales pitch in anything he said, he merely answered the question. He does not need me to defend him, but I have to voice my distaste for this. Perhaps your question would have been better as a PM.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2010
  11. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    That is hard to say, but I think the brand name of the doctoral training at a Tier 1 school would be useful for landing a full time teaching position at most colleges or universities.
  12. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    LOL -- Yes, it's typical!
  13. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    This is standard. He usually goes down the path of...you are too old...what will you do with the degree...not a good enough answer...and what thread would be complete without Dave calling someone a narcissist. The only thing Dave forgets to respond to is the questions about his PhD from TUI. I wonder why...

    By the way Dr Pina, I applaud you for responding to Dave in such a professional manner. I don't think he deserved a response.
  14. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Dave, are you disappointed about your Ph.D? Do you feel like you wasted your time/money? (a curious question, not a sarcastic one)
    Welcome to DegreeInfo! If this is your first thread, here is a bit of a preview:

    Ted Heiks: From the great state of...
    Rich Douglas: ...you need to accept that...
    Kizmet: ...soccer...
    John Bear: ...if my publisher...
    Maniac Craniac: ...I was just kidding...
    Chip: I writing to address the recent...
    Dave Wagner: ...narcissist.
  15. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    You are too much....what night do you do your stand up routine?
  16. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    The professional degree is very strong in Australia and most of the graduates I have spoken to are senior management in business, not academia. One of them just hired me for a managerial job in my post law enforcement career. It is interesting the high number of doctorates on the board of the company as well. None of whom are in academia.

    Tier 1 universities will always hold the research dollars, but global business is too vast for tier 1 universities to supply senior executives for. I still have not got past the tier 1 graduates who gave us the GFC.

    I would encourage your institution to persist with establishing a professional Doctorate program. While we need researchers in academia, we also need managers who are able to interpret research and develop a product from it. This is a very complex undertaking and requires the highest level of managerial skill and analysis. It is a long journey from the laboratory to the sale!
  17. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    And I applaud you, Randell, for expressing yourself; that is modeling good behavior for the group.
  18. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Ok, but shilling by merchant scholars is very common on degreeinfo.com... Moreover, the question by Thomas_Jefferson about a nonexistent doctoral degree program from Sullivan was the second post he or she made. Market research? Tony responded by saying that he wasn't shilling. Sounds good. Thomas_Jefferson responded with all sorts of comments... At the end of the day, it is up the moderators to work on any shilling to the degree they have time.
  19. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member


    I would agree with you that we have all seen our share of attempts at shilling here at DI. I think that your labelling of them as "merchant scholars" is either a clever backhanded complement or far too generous. Most of the shilling that I have seen here are for diploma mills and those get identified quickly by DI regulars. In written conversations with Bruce, I have been given the green light to mention when I have openings for online faculty, so that I can give Degreeinfo colleagues the opportunity to apply. Engaging is unsolicited advertising (shilling) is unacceptable. I will not compromise my reputation with this group by engaging in shilling. Shilling on Degreeinfo has never worked anyway, so it would be foolish for me to start doing it now. this is particularly true for a program currently under development, when my institution already has 19 other online degree programs for which I could shill. I do not know the identity of Thomas Jefferson, but it is not me. I have always used my real name--it is easy to find me on the Internet.

    I think that I can point to the origin of this particular thread: A while back, someone was asking about a conflict resolution/management doctorate other than Nova's. I mentioned that we were working on one. Later, in another forum, someone asked on a progress report and that is when I mentioned that it would be a concentration in our management doctorate. I believe that this forum was likely a result of that post.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2010
  20. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Dave, very few people here agree with you, to include those of us who are fellow doctors i.e. your esteemed doctoral colleagues disagree with your self-perpetuating defeatist attitude towards all students who make inquiry about doctoral studies, especially since you've never met them and don't know their aptitude or academic history. It is abundantly clear that it was an egregious mistake and a waste of your time and effort for you to pursue a doctorate from TUI; but your continued pernicious insistence that the pursuit of a doctorate is a mistake for all other inquiring students is, at best, narcissistic conceit on your part. Why is it narcissism on your part? It's a form of narcissism because you appear to believe that your opinion is significantly elevated above the vast majority of our esteemed doctoral and non-doctoral colleagues. Either you're wrong or all of our colleagues are wrong. The opinions of our doctoral colleagues carries more credibility than your isolated opinion. Instead of perniciously elevating your narcissistic opinion, why not simply point out the statistics on the attrition rates for students, once they reach the dissertation stage? Statistics speak louder than narcissism.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2010

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