What is a Tat? (a worthy separate topic, maybe for a diss)

A now deceased Armenian friend of mine, a survivor of the Ottoman genocide against the Armenians in 1915 and the firing of Smyrna/Izmir in 1922, used to speak of Tats in the Caucasus. Tats were Jews who lived in mountain areas and spoke a language related, I think, to Farsi. Why they were called Tats I have no idea.

 

Have you no respect for the site? This belongs in the off-topic forum.

 

the DL study of Tats

No it doesn't. Someone brought up tats (sic) on this sub-forum, so I posted it here. I also recall, as I think back, Tats being mentioned in a class I took at this wonderful non "denominational" Jewish tertiary institution in Chicago, which is, of course, completely reputable, has a dazzling faculty, and, best of all, offers a fair bit of programmes by DL with little residence required. The question arose whether Muslim Tats were secretly still observant Jews, and then whether Tats were somehow Karaite-related. In both instances, the answer was probably not. Whatever was the case about Tats, Spertus is a wonderful place to study, both challenging and nurturing. Spertus also offers special discounted rates for Christian clergy wishing to know more about Judaism, and this applies also to their mostly-DL programmes.

http://www.spertus.edu/

This additional link below explains Spertus' history and its accreditation status, which I do not believe is open to reasonable dispute. Nobody ever suggested that in its unaccredited first decades this was anything other than a most reputable institution. This perhaps sheds light on discussions of ac/unac, since Spertus under its old name was happily unaccredited and utterly solid for many years, long after start-up.

http://www.spertus.edu/aboutspertus/spertushistory.php

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Cordially,
Janko Preotul






Carthage must be destroyed.

 

All is clear.

 

Placet! It's the Sejm subject, wherever it happily goes.

Dear hearts:

Apparently the moderators have moved this thread to Off-topic. I am entirely copacetic with that decision. I have no authority, nor any desire, to try to interpose a Polish veto ("non placet!"), no authority or desire whatever.
To the young fellers who criticised my decision not to post in Off-topic, I can only say that this tread began in ac-unac, and I am simply following it around like a nursing father to see what becoomes of it. In addition, the demands of honour were graciously satisfied, so JUST AS I SAID if circumstances changed I might begin to post again on Off-topic. They have changed. So I might.
But please don't construe this as an actual Off-topic post; rather, it is an expatriate ac/unac post, much as the child of American citizens born abroad is an American citizen. One can learn a lot living internationally, if only in cyberspace.

With profoundest respect to this site and its most astute moderators,

Janko Preotul





Carthage must be destroyed.

 

Hummm... dunno, Unk.

Are Tats the descendents of the followers of Sabbatai Zevi who (kinda) converted to Islam in the 17'th century, but remained a separate distinct community that privately was still (kinda? mostly?) Jewish? (Where's Nosborne when we need him?)

I've hard of Nats in Myanmar, but that's (way) different.

 

curioser and curioser

Hi Bill the Wise:

No.

You're thinking of the Dönmeh, the ex-Shabbateans. They were more in areas of conventional Sephardic settlement in the Ottoman Empire: Istanbul, Aleppo, Saloniki. I don't think Shabbatai Zvi had followers in the Caucasus--Central Europe, Balkans, Aegean area were pretty much it, as far as I know. Different cultural orbit for the Caucasus, in many ways. I don't have Gershom Scholem's wonderful book on ol' Shabby.

Tats are completely separate and localised, from what I remember.

By the way, speaking of weird messianism, Justice Louis Brandeis' maternal family was originally Frankist.

And speaking of the Caucasus, the butcher Dzhugashvili had a good command of classical Greek and read Plato for pleasure in his later genocidal years (figures, IMHO).

There were lots of Nats (but not Tats) in the bad old days in South Africa, but there was nothing Burmese about them, though they were um Caucasian in the broader sense of the word.

Horribile dictu:
Census taker--"And your ethnicity, sir?"
Resident--"I'm a Tat."
Census taker--"Meow."

Sorry. Couldn't help it.

Janko the Implacable






Carthage must be destroyed.

 

Did you want to know about the Armenian Tats or the ethnic Tats in General?

Tats as an ethnic group are actually Persian in nature. The originated from Persian Tribes. They moved to the Caucasian mountains in or about the 5th century. The Tats do have their own language (Tati and is a dialect of Persian (Farsi)) but it is oral and not written, most commonly they use the Azeri alphabet.

The Turks originally used the term Tats to describe settled groups of non-Turkish origin. The Religions of the Tats are Muslim (some estimates have at about 80-90% Shia), Christian and Jewish.

The Jewish populations is often called “Mountain Jews” some say that they are not ethnic Tat at all and have taken the Tati language, other claim that they had converted to Judaism and they speak a dialect of Tati called Juhuri.

As for the Armenian Tats most over 50 can still speak the language but it is currently dying in Armenia. The Tats in Armenia are focused around New Madrasa.

 

On the 16th December...


QUOTE]Originally posted by uncle janko
This is my last post on Off-topic. It's been fun. See you elsewhere on degreeinfo.

You didn't last a week!

 

Glad to have you back Uncle…

I believe he satisfactorily explain his reasons for coming back here:

And here:

 

Come to think of it, what is a "tit" -- No, not that, the kind one trades for a tat?

 

With all do respect Dr. Bear, how do we really know that it isn't that kind of"tit" that gets traded for a tat ?

 

Searching <etymology:tit for tat> gives some possibilities. Someone in this thread covers it succinctly and back to 1556.

 

You are such an angry young man! My question is, who died and made you king?

LOL!

 

If you have a problem with the thread being moved to off-topic then take that up with the moderators.

 

Hi Tim! Thanks for more information on the Tats. I really appreciate it.

Janko






Carthage must be destroyed

 

I don't have a problem with the moderators at all.... I just enjoy tormenting you from time to time because you take this all so damned seriously! Lighten up....

I can hear in the back of my head the voice of Beavis....

"are you THREATENING me?" in his time honored role as Cornholio.....

 

Yes, the voices in your head.

 

Hi Janko,

My pleasure, I hope you found it at least a little useful.
Tim

 

I think that the only definition we need is the one that comes from Mama Morton, the buxom prison matron in Kander & Ebb's musical Chicago:

"They say that life is tit for tat, and that's the way I live.
So I deserve a lot of tat for what I have to give . . ."