Ultimate proof of the validity of a degree?

It seems to me that this is a rather cumbersome 19'th century (or earlier) process for verifying graduation. I guess that in the years before telephones and instant communications, the actual physical diploma meant a lot more than it does today. Universities would present you with a diploma and that was it. The diploma was your proof of graduation. Universities were not in the habit of verifying graduation themselves.

Forgery would be the obvious threat to that process. Somebody could set up a printing press and run off bogus proofs of graduation. I suspect that all the elaborate seals and things that decorated old diplomas were not just there to make the thing look cool, they were intended as anti-forgery measures.

And it seems to me that this whole "apostile" process is another anti-forgery measure, designed to help insure that the diploma that the graduate presents actually originated at the university.

Today, in a world in which universities can be contacted directly and graduation verified that way, the physical diploma is of far less importance. In my case, the only person who showed any interest in my bachelors diploma was my mother. I don't even know where the diploma is now. (In a box in the basement, I think.)

But I hear that the old procedures are still followed in Latin America, where employers continue to want to see job applicants' original diplomas, and where applicants sometimes present them in elaborate carrying cases.

The whole point of the process is to provide evidence that the diploma is *genuine*, isn't it? Where 'genuine' means "really issued by the institution whose name is on it". It doesn't seem to have anything to do with *legitimacy*, where 'legitimate' means "meeting accepted academic standards".

I think that this whole thread is an example of confusion on that point.

It's perfectly possible to have a genuine diploma from Godzilla U. Just because a US consulate somewhere notarizes it doesn't absolve the Netherlands or Spain from having to pay attention to annoying little things like accreditation. The competent authorities in the recipient party still have to determine if the degree that the diploma represents meets their particular needs.

 

Enlightening

BillDayson,

You can find in this link from the Spanish Ministry of Education all the requisites.

http://www.mec.es/inf/comoinfo/d-4-2-1-3.htm


And this is the email I received from the official at this same Ministry after my initial enquire

Para solicitar la homologación de sus títulos al correspondiente español
debe enviar a esta Subdirección los siguientes documentos:

* Solicitud de homologación debidamente cumplimentada (si así lo
desea, le enviaré un ejemplar por correo electrónico)
* Certificación acreditativa de su nacionalidad (fotocopia compulsada
de su pasaporte)
* Título o títulos originales o certificación acreditativa de su
expedición
* Certificación académica de los estudios cursados (años académicos,
asignaturas, calificaciones, horas, créditos...)
* Programas de estudios (aportación voluntaria)
* Cualquier otro documento que desee aportar en apoyo de su solicitud

Tanto el título original como el certificado de estudios deben estar
legalizados (Apostilla de la Haya) en Estados Unidos. El título y
certificado británicos no necesitan legalización. Tanto los títulos como los
certificados de estudios deben ser traducidos al castellano por un traductor
jurado.

Sus documentos serán enviados al Consejo de Universidades que comparará los
contenidos y formación con los del correspondiente título español y emitirá
un dictamen. En el caso de que el dictamen del Consejo de Universidades sea
favorable con una prueba de conjunto, deberá realizarla en una universidad
española de su elección donde le informarán sobre las fechas de realización
y contenidos.

La tramitación de la homologación lleva bastante tiempo.

Un cordial saludo,

Nieves Trelles

Asesora Técnica. NARIC España
Subdirección General de Títulos, Convalidaciones y Homologaciones
Paseo del Prado, 28. 28014 Madrid
Tel. 91 506 56 00. Ex. 65101
Fax: 91 506 57 06


Hopefully you can understand Spanish.

I have said before, or have implied it, that the stamping of the diploma is the previous stage to recognize a degree. Without that apostile the process can’t go on. Do you follow or do you need some additional explanation?

Both the diploma and transcripts have to be legalized by the US Government. That way the receiving country knows that both the diploma and the transcripts (containg all the work load, credits, subjects, etc…) are legitimate. Read the foreword and the preamble of the the Hague Convention

Respect to being sued for using credentials from CCU it is something I have read in this same board, which no one seemed to object at the time. If in some states those degrees cannot be used, the US is cheating or being incompetent by not warning other countries that those documents are valueless or even illegal. Not to mention if it directly places a stamp on them, as Mr. Bear pointed out. Why would any country of the world want to have a useless document notarized? The objective of the Hague Convention is to validate legal documents.

Sincerely, I could not care less if you give credit or not to the European validation system and specifically the Spanish. The process has been established for a long time now, and that is how it goes whether it has your approval or not.

 

Re: Enlightening

You seem to me to be talking about two very different things:

1. Spain requiring notarized documents from your wife. So, go to your local US consulate and do it. I don't see the problem.

2. Your accusations that the United States State Department is guilty of something approaching fraud. I believe that accusation is mistaken.

Go get the diploma stamped. But stop attacking the United States because Spain requires some bureaucratic red-tape.

Because the decision whether or not the documents are useless is left up to the authorities at your end.

 

Yeah, you are right, Bill. I will blame from now on Palestine, Putin, or Bin Laden that the USA issues fake documents.... Geeez

In fact, I opened this discussion under the assumption that the US would deny notarization to any fraudulent degree, and that it would be the ultimate, irrefutable proof of the validity of a degree. I thought I was contributing in some fashion to this long debate, and I meant well. Actually I still cannot believe they do it, but if Mr. Bear says so, I definitely must think it is so.

It is truly revealing that you are more concerned about those alleged attacks to the US (from somebody who admitted to love the USA who has reiterated it in several occasions) than the FACT that the US delivers and certifies illegal documents. I would prefer to discuss serious matters about distance education, and not about hurt nationalistic feelings that do not contribute at all to the discussion.

 

Several different issues are being discussed here.

The primary problem that I see is that *no* country's apostille proves the validity of a degree.

As John Bear notes, an apostille is just one more step in verifying that a document was issued by the entity from which it claims to be issued. Like notarization, it says nothing at all about the value or reputation of that entity.

The Oregon Secretary of State explains: "... These papers [certificates or apostilles] are attached to documents that require some official acknowledgment that the notarization was performed by a notary, commissioned in Oregon, in good standing. Foreign jurisdictions often require them before they will accept the notarized document. ... They sometimes require a "chain of certification" so that every signature authenticating another is itself authenticated. In other words, the notary certifies the document signer's signature. The Secretary of State certifies the Notary's signature; the Federal Government certifies the State's signature and authority."

As the Oklahoma State University Patent and Trademark Library says: "...a notarization does not indicate that the notary public has read and understood the disclosure; the notarization merely states that you carried identification sufficient to prove your identity and that you affixed your signature to something while the notary was looking."

All along this way, what's being verified? Basically, signatures -- that the document is really from the person or entity from which it claims to be from. Whether that person or entity is reputable -- that's completely irrelevant to the notarization or apostille.

In an earlier message you said "Why would any country of the world want to have a useless document notarized?" No country would, but many individuals or businesses might, whether to sell a scam or through a sincerely misguided estimation of their abilities.

Some less-than-wonderful schools do tout their apostille service as if this were somehow meaningful. Many also provide laundry lists of organizations to which they belong -- legitimate organizations of good reputation, which do not bestow any part of this reputation on those who purchase memberships.

The notary and apostille process just don't address the question of whether the person or entity that has issued a document is qualified. For that there are other systems.