U of PHX DBA or Henley DBA

Brunel not Henley

I think some people might be overlooking the fact that the Henley DBA is awarded by Brunel University and indicates as such on the degree certificate.

There may be some academics in the US that are using PhD(Brunel) or DBA(Brunel) in their profiles. Perhaps.

 

Andy:

I can't argue with the gist of your post, except to say that there are already some very good schools--along the lines of Ivy League--offering DL PhDs in other fields, such as Engineering, Education and Computer Science. Is there something peculiar to the study of business that would make it different?

As for the quality issue, I don't think it need be axiomatic that DL = lower standards for incoming students--the DL students enrolled in Duke's and Purdue's DL/low residency MBA programs have very high average GMATs, higher than the majority of FT PhD program students (which surprisingly, usually aren't that high, typically ranging in the 600s).

It's been my experience that people who obtain PhDs often do so via distance once their basic coursework is completed anyway: a young lady who's a professor where I teach is working on her dissertation and research hundreds of miles from her university, and she'll probably be working on this PhD in Mathematics "via distance" for the majority of her time as a PhD student--and she's by no means unique, she's more the norm. Students often run off to another institution where they're teaching or wherever after two years of PhD coursework, and do the majority of research and writing for their dissertation from far away.

As for this cdiscussion about the PhD in Business being "so rigorous" that you couldn't possibly do it and something else simultaneously, I can say that I personally witnessed my wife's time spent on her PhD coursework in pure Mathematics at a top-tier school, and it just wasn't that much, she could've--and did--work a part-time job--she taught several Math classes in the department. And the Math that she studied in terms of intellectual rigor destroys any Statistics or Research Methodologies class that any Biz PhD ever dreamed of! I guarantee you, the top of their class graduate at Harvard's PhD program in Business would get his/her butt kicked if they tried to take the doctoral level Mathematics courses that my wife took, and so would the professors there--intellectual rigor my posterior!

So what I'm wondering is: since Business Administration is not someplace where you need a lab like the hard sciences, why in the world can't they have a PT program where the student does three or so years PT or DL with residencies and then works for three or so years on their dissertation while away from the ivory towers and perhaps working part-time in the true laboratory of business--the private sector? This just makes so much sense the only people who could convince themselves that it wouldn't work are academics. Thanks for letting me vent, this wasn't directed at you, Andy, I appreciated your input, my rant is just directed at those in charge of the ivory towers at PhD Biz programs--I think they're breathtakingly wrongheaded on this.

 

mrw142 - thanks for your reply. You're right - there is nothing stopping high quality DL. The reality, however, is that most of the U.S. schools we talk about here aren't high quality. A good example of high quality is the Case Western program. It really isn't DL, but if you're willing to travel to Cleveland you can complete it. Interestingly, Case clearly labels the degree as a "Doctor of Management" not to be confused with their traditional (and well regarded) PhD in Business. Given their image and quality they can afford to be very selective and very expensive.

The Brit and Aussie schools are also good examples of high quality DL programs.

The busienss model used by the for-profits (and to some extent schools like NSU) is pretty simple - large number of students (some quite bright and others that less gifted) and adjunct instructors with realtively little interaction with faculty (at least compared to traditional programs). NSU is a bit different in that they have a fair number of full-timers, howerver.

As for GMAT's - when you get to scores in the 600+ range you're talking about the top 10-20% or so of students.

As for doing something else - some of the full-time programs in business will tolerate some part-time employment. Places like Cleveland State actually cater to full-time working folks. The point is that top schools are going to demand a lot of your time. You can't work 40 hours a week, have a family and complete a full-time PhD program in business at a good school in 4-5 years. Why folks think that a DL program is "just as good" that is completed in 3-4 years while working full-time - I just can't see this.

Will B-Schools open up on this subject? Perhaps. But I doubt there is a strong motivation (especially financial) at most schools to do so. Maybe we'll see a race to start high quality, AACSB accredited, part-time PhD programs - but I'm not sure we''ll see it soon. Time will tell.

Regards - Andy

 

Good Lord, my thoughts exactly! Ditto

 

Re: Re: U of PHX DBA or Henley DBA

I was told by their Dean when I was being considered about 50%. They attribute it to family issues and the other when their scholars being moving up that corporate latter, and they drop out.

 

I have not done a searach, but I don't think this is accurate. I know that some DL students have published at the top tier journals, so I do agree the number is realatively low, since the schools offering this tye of program can be counted in less than one hands fingers, but I wouldn't say the above quote is accurate.

 

I have a question. If a doctrate graduate, all other things being equal, including publishing in the top journals, do the conference circuit, guest speak at Univesrities, etc - would you consider a DL graduate the same as a B&M.

Right now, I am hearaing the arguement of apples to oranges. I know several B&M grads that go into industry, don't publish, and would have a hard time getting a job. I know several B&M grads (and soon to be) who have publsihed, going to conferences, and are able to call their place to work in academia.

I think there is no argument that people who go DL, don't publish, and don't' go with the AACSB (Nova, TUI, etc), is not in the same ballpark as the B&M top tier schools, but come on, let's compare apples to apples.

There are many less DL doctorates doing this, but that is becuase there are only a few schools offering it.

Be Fair!

 

I agree with you, Andy. It's silly to think that PT programs can be done in such a manner, 3-4 years is unrealistic and hiring committees rightly look upon such degrees with suspicion. However, I've no good notion why some U.S. school can't follow the model of some of the very best UK schools such as Henley, Manchester and Aston and offer very selective, very rigorous (by Business standards) PhD/DBA programs that can be completed PT in 5-8 years while actually working PT in the "laboratory" of business. I think the Brits have the right idea, and why the AACSB and American universities think that even business research at the highest level is best learned in the classroom is beyond reason--the emperor has no clothes!

 

The difference is that most of the DL schools in the US are for-profit. If degree requirements are 8 years p/t as some UK universities, they would have a very hard time enrolling students. The idea of being 8 years in school does not appeal to anyone plus 8 years of fees can kill any budget. The 3-4 year part time seems to be more marketeable than the 8 year program for sure. However, in 3-4 years part time is hard to get to publish something substantial. I've been sending my articles to high impact journals and it took me few years to ge the quality they want, the 3-4 year programs does not allow a student to have the time to perfect publishing skills, it takes many rejections to really learn that skill.

 

RFValve:

I have no problem with what you're saying, which essentially seems to be: "The for-profits are meeting demand for a given product, which is a 3 year PT 'PhD', 'DBA' or 'DM' in Business."--that's fine, if there's a market for it, who am I to question it--but I think there's also a market for a selective DL or PT program built on the English model: one that's rigorous like Emory's low-residency MBA, selective like Purdue's DL MBA, and reknowned like the Fuqua DL MBA at Duke. There are people in this country who can pull a 700 on the GMAT and have many years of industry experience, they have the means to drop back to PT in their work schedules (or have such boundless energy they could spend 80 hours a week in the combo of work and study) and they have the money to afford the tuition to get into a solid DBA/PhD program. What most of these types don't have, though, is the ability to completely take 4-5 years off from their careers to live on a $20K/yr stipend. The UK seems to have no trouble making room for these fine professionals, and there are [programs offered by lower-tier schools all the way up to the elites. Why not here?

 

I enjoyed this post very much. It has been enlightening.

I would like to pursue a PhD in Accounting, but my husband is in the military and we move every 3 years. To make matters worse, he is a Marine, so our options are more limited than the other branches (since it's the smallest of the services). There aren't many schools offering a PhD in Accounting within commuting distance of a Marine Corps base.

I would LOVE to see a quality school (AACSB) offer some kind of DL program for students like myself. I CAN live on $20k/yr stipend and I have the time to commit, I just can't physically get to the schools.

 

Part of the problem here is that there are so few examples of pople with DL credentials that do the same things as grads from top B&M schools. The very best examples of DL grads that I've seen are teaching at mediocre schools and publishing in B journals. You could argue that the academic world discriminates again DL grads - but then the conference and journal world works with blind reviews. If DL grads are really prepared to do original research as well as B&M grads, they should be able to publish in top journals. But they don't.

One of my Nova faculty members (an adjunct from a middle level state school) told me that his dean simply wouldn't take a chance on a DL grad. Period. If a school is trying to move up the ranking latter, you do this by hiring the best faculty possible. And for the most part, DL grads needn't bother applying.

Regards - Andy