Trinity's Doctoral Programs

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Rich

No one is going to dislike you for that.

Nor should anyone disdain the genuine efforts of a school like Trinity to improve its programs.

North's counter that all accredited/GAAP doctorates in Theology/Bible may not be equal has some weight. Certainly they are unequal in utility.

That is, one with a TEDS doc, eg, would likely find employment in a US seminary easier to get than one with a Unizul doc. But, is there a demonstrable difference in rigor (1) among USA RA schools, and (2) between RA USA schools and Unizul?

Possibly the answer is yes for (1)! One way to estimate rigor is entry requirements. Whereas the Fuller PhD in Theology allows one with an MA to enter, the Dallas PhD requires an MDiv to enter. POSSIBLY that would suggest a difference in rigor. Maybe not.

It may not decisive as many other criteria as the requisites of individual coursework and dissertation need to be factored in as well . And it could be argued that the MDiv practical coursework does not raise one's grasp of Theology--I might not concede that as Theology without application is dead.

Then the comparison in (2) is that Unizul more approximates Fuller in that regard than Dallas as the US four year ThM is not the form of the South African ThM.! Nomenclature is the same, but the curricular reqs are not.

The obvious difference with Unizul is that it is a research only degree unless the applicant needs to make up some deficiency. But all USA RA docs in Theology require some residence and coursework. But to say that all research only docs are wanting would be an incautious hypothesis.

Still I do not think that my own work at Unizul much lags behind the rigor of either Fuller or Dallas for several reasons:

First, I really have much B&M grad coursework already under by belt having spent years in the classrooms. I think this provides a solid foundation to do independent study.

Second, my Unizul promoter has the persona of being fairly demanding even though he is allowing me much latitude and self-direction. Of course two other profs from two other universities will be looking at the dissertation I hope in December. Representatives of three public universities will ( I HOPE) approve my work and in a way put their reputation in that decision. To me this gives credibility to that affirmation--IF it is given.

Third, my ThM studies are considered similar in rigor to PhD studies. This can be evidenced by looking at the Fuller or the Baptist (in Pa) PhD descriptions where the work for the PhD is significantly reduced if one has the USA sort of ThM. Even at Dallas one with only an MDiv must do 26 more units than one with a ThM. So, in a sense I have a bit of experience with the rigor expected of a USA doc program. My Unizul writing is the equivalent or beyond that I did in the Western RA/ATS ThM work!

Fourth, most of my profs at Western had ThDs from Dallas. I therefore know something of the DTS rigor.

Fifth, my ThM thesis commitee was comprised exclusively of Dallas ThD holders-- I rec'd A's in each of the 4 semesters I worked on the thesis -- they passed me even though they disagreed with what I said .

Sixth, besides my South African formal readers , I also have an informal reader nearby who has his PhD from Dallas, is published in the field, and is a prof at an RA school. He finds little fault with what I write although the chapter just finished, of 65 pages, will be the real test as he and I disagree on the hypostatic union.

Seventh, I really prize writing this disseratation. It is much a labor of love done because of that interest and is not done for any employment or financial advantage. I will not knowingly skimp on the doing of it even though I'm trying hard to be all done by May of 2005. I know even if I do my best it will not do justice to the topic.

I wish you the best as you study at Trinity.

 

Finally! We now know the purpose of Bill's myriad posts directed at me--------Harassment!

 

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But always only affectionately

 

itsnotadaitsnotadaitsnotadaitsnotada...

 

I like the approach that you've taken with your education and that you are doing it simply for the sake of the research.

I haven't been around long enough to have gleaned all the details so I am wondering what topic you're researching. My only guess at this point is that you're interested in vindicating Nestorius -- which would make you very popular with my Assyrian friends here in Turlock.

 

Russell,

You can't blame Bill for that; after all, wasn't he predestined to do it?

 

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Hi Michael

Thanks. I really appreciate your interest and comment.

Actually Nestorius, whom I think is oft misrepresented as saying there are two persons in Christ, is but a small part. Here is the essence of my dissertation:



THE OBEDIENT SON

An Evaluation of American Evangelical Teaching on the Eternal Role Subordination of Christ in the Light of Related Doctrines

chap 1- The Misunderstood Son

Here I show that most in American Evangelicalism posit the Father as the ontological source and / or eternal authority over the Son.


chap 2- The Ingenerate Son

Here I show the roots of eternal role subordination as being 4th century monarchianism --devised to avoid tritheism- not the Scriptures, which are grossly misinterpreted by such as Nicaea and the other ancient Greek creeds as Arius's or Eusebius's , Dahms , Arminius, Shedd, Williams, Wiley, and Berkhof to teach the eternal essentiation of Person or nature the Son. I exegetically argue that this doctrine is not demonstrable by Scripture.


chap 3- The Divine Son

Here I show exegetically and systematically that the essential and attributional equality of the Son with the other trinal Persons require any role subordination of the Son to be economic and temporal not essential or eternal.


chap 4- The Trinal Son

Here I show that the unity of God , the perichoresis of the Persons , the peculiarities of their subsistences , the immanant vs the economic Trinity, and , the economic missions , and the supposed eternal procession of the Spirit, do not support the view that the Son is eternally role subordinate.


Chap 5- The Subservient Son

Here I systematically and exegetically show that the Son's relational subordination only has roots in that which is outside of God as decree and salvation not that internal to God and that role subordination , therefore, began with the Incarnation. I exegete Philippians 2:5-9 using about 25 pages to show that there the Son has equality because He exists in (present tense) the form of God and that it is in the form of Man that He became (aorist) obedient.


Chap 6- The Theanthropic Son

Here I try to show that the earthly submission of the Son is accomplished in and by His human nature, not by His divinity divested of the attributes of omniscience and omnipresence as say Buswell and Erickson, as divinity cannot be subject to divinity and cannot change, and that the human nature has its own psychological apparatus as mind and will to carry out that subjection. Less than that is not IMO true Man.

I argue, eg, that if the human nature of Christ cannot experience and act, then Christ cannot learn obedience, be tempted, be perfected, or be our example.

I do a large literature review here.

Such a position does equate more with Nestorius and his friends as Theodoret and the Antiochenes than with Apollinarius, Athanasius, the nonChalecedonian Orthodoxy, the official RC position, Cyril ,or even with Leonitius, and the modern qualifiers IMO of Christ's full humanity as Buswell, Strong, Miley, and, even Erickson.

However my position that in Christ are two natures which experience and act is not beyond, I think, that of Leo, Agatho, Gregory of Nyssa, Tertullian, Theodore of Mopseusta, AB Bruce, Constantinople, John of Damascus , IA Dorner, Baille, Grudem, Warfield, Shedd, Hodge, Clark, and even of my interpretation of Chemnitz--tho Unk may disagree.

I write because I'm convinced that The Son is being misinterpreted by the Church , and that all those Scriptures as 1 Cor 11:3 used to show a hierarchy in the Trinity are being exegeted by a faulty system and that such results in denying to the Son the honor and glory He deserves.

It has been a terrific learning experience for me and I'm very thankful that Unizul which so fits my budget and circumstance has allowed this study which now is about 85% complete. I hope to mail it in by Nov and barring the necessity for great changes in it be done by May of 05.

I would recommend Unizul to any like me. But I am not convinced that with just an MA, whether by DL or by B%M I could be very successful in my endeavor.

I also think that those who posit finances or circumstances as a reason to go unaccredited rather than GAAP for doc study are sometimes, not always, going UA because they lack the academic background to go RA/GAAP. I know its lots of work to become prepared. I did it by God's grace as an avocation while school teaching.

As you see, there are very few toes I do not step on in my bold opining. I hope they and God will forgive me where I'm wrong.

Thanks again,

 

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Yes. And, the divine plan is for Russell to be yet another occasion for showing the dysfunction of the Arminian system.

 

To Bill Grover,

I just read the outline you posted of your Doc. dissertation and it certianly looks "great", it also looks like you put a lot of hard work into it.

"WHEN" you receive your Doc. degree you will certianly have earned the title, "Doctor of Theology."

When the time comes, I, as well as others I'm sure, would be very much interested in reading it!!

At the bottom of your outline, you made the comment that not to many people could do this level of work; I agree!

Therefore, I would like to ask you this, since you obviously do not like Trinity, what other schools would you recommend or suggest to someone to help prepare them for possibly this level of work in Theology/Bible studies?

Your opinion and suggetsions would be highly respected and valued.

Thank you and God's continued blessings in your work,

Rich Hartel
A.A. in Theological Studies, Trinity College of the Bible (present)

 

This is a good thing! Thank you for the update. Since "withdrawing" I haven't kept up with TTS.

I am in hopes my Th.M. and Ph.D. alma mater, Bethany Divinity College and Seminary, will at some juncture make similiar changes in their programming. Even offering one year of Hebrew and Greek would be a good start along with some major faculty additions appropriate to the degrees offered.

I think once the current administration is no longer at the helm changes will be made because of some of the other staff on board who have been advocating change for a long time.

Good luck on your TTS work! Blessings to you!

 

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Rich

Thanks for your comment.

But, no, no, no I did NOT say, "not to (sic) many people could do this kind of work." Obviously most any of the TTS faculty in Bib/Theo along with thousands and thousands and thousands of others could do exactly what I do and many do it better! I would never, never suggest what you think I said!

IMO Trinity could provide you with a decent education right up into the master's degree level! Search every comment I ever made here about TTS, and I think you will not find me faulting the faculty qualifications or essential substance of TTS degrees except the doctoral ones.

I don't like TTS having doc students do some of the undergrad work as I did and I don't like the lack of interaction with profs on my papers, but maybe that latter is not atypical in DL.

Despite North hyperbolism, I do not hate TTS. I do think it has made a habit of misrepresentation, and I do despise its affiliation with MDS. But TTS has very qualified profs and the coursework has some substance!

If TTs does not get RA, however, then you will find it difficult to transfer into a higher RA degree program. There are, of course, many, many NA (AABC, TRACS) or RA distance degrees at the undergrad and MA level in Bib/Theol. If TTS does not get RA, you may wish to look into one of these. If you cannot find these by looking at Jason Baker's website, let me know.

Also, there are several DL GAAP (RA equivalent, sort of) schools which offer degrees as South African Theological Seminary and several in the UK and Australia.

I sincerely wish you God's best as you continue to study,

 

Rich,
The problem with this is that most doctoral programs won't let you enroll without having Greek and/or Hebrew prior to entering the program. I had to have two years of Greek and one year of Hebrew in my undergraduate program. If I had not had those I would have had to take them when I entered my Master's program. I can't imagine a school allowing a person to enter a DA/Ph.D/Th.D program at a seminary without them already having a good grasp on these languages. In other words, many of the courses in this type of program are in the original languages, so one must already have a grasp on them prior to entering the program.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but Trinity is not, and never has been, up to par.

BLD

 

TO Bill Grover,

If I missunderstood or mis-quoted you than I certainly apologize!

Let me put it this way, I do not at this point and time have the ability to do the level of work that you do!!

And thank you for your reply, and I will look into Jason Baker's website.


Rich Hartel
A.A. in Theological Studies, Trinity College of the Bible

 

I could not agree more. Time and time again folks go for KW degrees, St. Regis degrees (etc) when there are not only credible foreign options but top notch South African Schools for far less. One then has to ask if it is more than an issue of money.

Good luck my friend. I cannot wait for news that you have completed your program. You certainly are passionate and have worked hard.

North

 

First, let me understand...you did not need any Greek or Hebrew for your Masters degree or doctoral degree because you had it at the undergraduate level.

Second, Trinity is not offering a DTh or PhD it is a doctorate program designed to do what it does and apparently it does... as it got RA candidacy. Also, I certainly see little need for languages in a DA program in Conflict Management or Biblical Counseling.

As for Trinity not being up to par.....utter nonsense. Trinity received RA after an evaluation by a recognized RA accreditor and highly competent team. Trinity has excellent and high caliber faculty. As much as I liked ACCS, Trinity is far and I do mean faaaaaaaaar superior to ACCS. Just look at the caliber of ACCS faculty (nearly all with ACCS DMin degrees) as compared to Trinity...........no contest. I got lucky and had a faculty member with a PhD in Counseling at ACCS. On top of that judging by what Jimmy Clifton said Trinity requires more work as well.

North

 

Hi North,
I didn't need Greek/Hebrew for my Master's degree because I had it in my undergraduate program. My D.Min. did not require the languages.

Perhaps Trinity has improved since I was enrolled, but when I took a couple of classes there it was completely Micky Mouse stuff. As long as they are associated with MDS I will never believe they offer a credible program. As I've said before, if they receive accreditation, it speaks poorly for NCA, not well for Trinity.

I am not an expert on the nomenclature, buy my understanding is that the Doctor of Arts is similar to the Master of Arts, which is an academic degree, where the Doctor of Ministry is a professional degree. I see your point about the programs you've listed, but if it is in a field that purports that it's graduates will have some expertise in Bible, it most definitely should include the biblical languages.

BLD

 

Did Jimmy take classes from ACCS?

BLD

 

Trinity has apparently come up a lot then and judging by what I understand it leaves ACCS in the dust (and ACCS improved over the years). I don't think it speaks poorly for NCA (unless one is being biased), it merely means that Trinity has come up to Regional Accreditation standards. To be fair we have to allow that if they indeed did it then they have met the standard. Quality faculty and apparently substantial academic requirements judging by what Jimmy said and the fact of the candidacy.

Let us remember the bad descriptions in the press and elsewhere used to slam Union's academics years ago and the University of Sarasota (decribed as a mill operating out of a motel as I recall). Both rose above humble beginnings and became Regionally accredited and today people speak respectfully of these institutions. It is possible (redemption).

Now the MDS cash cow thing, I have to agree with.

North