Tea leaves?

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by nosborne48, Aug 24, 2020.

  1. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    With President Trump COVID 19 infection and now treatment in the hospital many are asking questions and raising the subject of the 25th Amendment.
    I wish the president full recovery but this subject is on people's minds, what happens (to elections) if president Trump temporary due to the illness disabled or worse.
    The 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution addresses what happens to the presidency and vice-presidency.
    Things may change.
  2. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I try not to let mad ravings bother me.
  3. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Evidence is there that its well-justified ravings and they are not mad but factual based on the rigged investigation by the mad establishment for losing 2016 elections.
  4. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    There seems to be a strong tendency of folks on the far edges of the right and left spectrum to have the deluded belief that only they are patriots that love their country. Over the last decade or two that attitude seems to be much stronger and more prevalent on the right. The truth of the matter is that most civil servants are apolitical and just want to do a good job. This is especially true in the DOJ and Intelligence Collection fields where there is a generally much stronger patriotic component to the job. Most of those folks could probably get a job in the private sector and earn more money. Generally those folks are patriots that love our country and want to serve their country by doing their job well.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Individuals vary, of course, but the way I'd put it is that there seems to be a strong tendency of folks on the right to believe that only they are patriots that love their country, and a strong tendency of folks on the left to believe that only they care about the people who live in that country.
    Maniac Craniac and Bill Huffman like this.
  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    You said it better than I did.
  7. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    There are also people who want the Marxists, Socialist, and Communist USA, they want to destroy the USA as we know it.
    It appears that they come closer to Washington now via the Dem's party. So the Patriots on both sides need to do more about this.
    As Biden said he won the nomination, and he is not radial left, yet his ticket and some people who will work for him are?
  8. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Someone who is a communist or Marxist is serving in the US armed forces, or a paramedic, firefighter, or a working man and definitely a Patriot in loving his country, just like someone who is a pro-capitalism, and against the centralized community but an individualism based community where people can be equal in rights but rewarded for entrepreneur or hard work studying, running a business, etc without wealth redistribution. My wife is protected by a union so there are worker rights and protection from greedy and abusive employment practices. This is more of a left achievement, while in some situations also can hurt the businesses if radicalized and politically used.
    I think there was less divide in the past. Too bad things got so divided.

    United we stand.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I know there are people like that Vladimar Putin, immediately comes to mind.

    Not sure what you really mean by lumping socialist into that list though. Do you think Social Security and Medicare have destroyed the USA? Those are socialist programs, are they not? If I supported a public option for health care would that mean that I want to destroy the USA? There are countries in western Europe that are more socialist than we are here in the USA. Do you consider them destroyed countries? I have visited some and they seem very similar to the USA to me.

    Taking any socialist type programs off the table since I am not sure what bogeyman you are referring to here by the socialist reference. Let me say this. If you think more than 0.001% of the Democratic party want to be Marxist or Communist or destroy the USA or if you think anyone directly working for Biden wants to be Marxist or Communist or destroy the USA then you are in far worse shape than I feared. Based on this post it is looking like that may be the case? Admittedly your socialist reference seems out of place and has perhaps confused me though?
  10. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member


    So much for the Declaration of Independence and life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    The abolition of private property is the first dictum of socialism.
    Socialism depends upon the decision-making of a central government.
    (I think is much better to be able to govern ourselves.)
    This is our challenge: to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about socialism—a pseudo-religion grounded in pseudo-science and enforced by political might.


    This is our challenge: to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about socialism—a pseudo-religion grounded in pseudo-science and enforced by political might.

    Now Capitalism is not perfect, the recession of 2008 made a serious dent. So the solution is a balance.
    Private enterprise utilizes economic resources more efficiently than the government and that society benefits when the distribution of wealth is determined by a freely-operating market with safeguarding provision of social services programs requiring controlling taxes that may not decelerate economic growth.

    But liberty has no price.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
  11. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Just saw left propaganda advertisement and a call for a petition.
    "If we don’t abolish the Electoral College, Trump will use the archaic system to steal the presidency again! Sign now to abolish the Electoral College!"

    Trump didn't steal the elections in 2016.

    So whats next the Constitution? How many times the left is calling it an archaic document?
  12. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    I'd say that there's some justification for our thinking that, given the almost universal condemnation of the country, its people, its history and its symbols on the left.

    Americans are imperialists, supposedly hated around the world. The American population out in 'flyover country' between California and New York/DC are "deplorables" - racists, rednecks, savages, mindless pickup truck driving, beer swilling inferiors clutching desperately to their religion and their guns. Our economic market system totally sucks and needs to be replaced by socialism. Monuments to our history and our founding fathers (who were inexcusably white) are destroyed and become targets of contempt. Our history is rewritten by things like the 1619 project from a story of the triumph of liberty and democracy into a story of unrelenting racist oppression. Our symbols of national unity, the symbolic things that all of us share in common are attacked and disrespected.

    The democrats' slogan, adopted by Obama and continued by Biden, says it all: Change!

    Which communicates the message that America as it stands is simply intolerable and needs to go away and be replaced by... what? Something else.

    There's never any clarity about what they propose to replace America with, since I don't think that they are agreed on what it is. The democrats are nothing more than the coalition of the alienated. All that they really share with one another is their sense of grievance and dissatisfaction.

    It's the final denouement of the 60's and the baby boomers and it may well mark the end of Western Civilization.
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    They aren't, though. There's a difference between social democracy, where a layer of social programs are on top of a market economy, and socialism. I realize that distinction is lost on a number of people on the right (and a lot of libertarians, to be honest), but then, the Prime Minister of Denmark had to ask Bernie Sanders to stop calling his country socialist, so apparently it's a distinction also lost to some on the left.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  14. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I wouldn't. It seems to me that (again, broadly speaking) many on the right remember only the bit about "My country, right or wrong;" whereas many on the left also remember the rest: "if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

    Now, I definitely don't always agree with them on what needs to be set right. But pretending that the same historical narratives and symbolism that were unifying in 1820 must still be unifying in 2020 isn't patriotism.
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Yes, that also appears to be the definition being used by Lerner. Thank you.
  16. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Thank you for defining what you meant by socialist. It is very important because Bernie and many Democrats have a very different view of the definition for the word. They are not socialist from that traditional definition of the word so excluding that side of the party as being included in the socialist label I'll reword my response for you.
    I know there are people like that that want to destroy our country, Vladimar Putin, immediately comes to mind.

    Let me say this. Do you think more than 0.001% of the Democratic party want to be Marxist, Socialist or Communist or destroy the USA or do you think anyone directly working for Biden wants to be Marxist, Socialist or Communist or destroy the USA? If so then you are being paranoid and have an unrealistic view of the Democratic party and our country. It does appear to me that that may actually be the case?
  17. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Immediately after the celebration of our nation’s 244th birthday, the former Vice President Biden tweeted an intention to Transform America.
    “shareholder capitalism” must be stopped.
    We're going to beat Donald Trump. And when we do, we won't just rebuild this nation — we'll transform it.

    Joe Biden’s ‘End of Shareholder CapitalismWould be the end of America as we know.
    Basically, Biden is threatening to effectively end individual ownership and the profit incentive.
    This is not merely a slogan. It is a full intention for progressive leftists (aka Marxist Revolutionaries) and This is the entire purpose of the left.
    Basically - Marxist totalitarianism were the politicians, bureaucrats, or initially, the mob sets the standard.

    The real balance comes from the free market.
    By focusing on profit, a balance is struck.
    Wages have to be high enough to attract workers. Prices have to be low enough to attract customers.
    Governments get a share of those profits. Free market competition provides opportunity.
    In our system, the protection of society is handled by laws, regulations, and the potential for private litigation.
    In other words, society sets the rules and the role of corporations is to maximize profitability within those rules.

    Without a free market, decisions must be made by the bureaucracy, leading to a Marxist hell.
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Yeah, that's, right there, batsh1t insane. Next time try to at least Wikipedia the terms you are using.

    ...but who am I to question a guy who feels he's a "real American" because of al,, the amazing merit he accumulated? "Thank you Lord I'm not like those other immigrants, rapists, looters, moochers, or that publican. I donate to charity and even tried to enlist into Navy Reserve that one time". Luke 18:10, paraphrased.

    P. S. as a former minor tax official, I'm quite literally a publican. Funny how that works.
  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Your cheap shot at me is just that not wordy of attention. What did you do for the US?
    Wikki is that your reference? Wow! You can try to shoot the messenger.
    But your Marxist candidate is known and unmasked.
    What is so amazing about this is that it was reported without a blink by CNBC.
    Yet this is one of the most revolutionary proposals ever made by the leading candidate for the White House.
    The implications are enormous and the examples from history should be obvious. Unfortunately, no one seems willing to grasp that this would mean that economic freedom would be lost. Job opportunities would be limited. Eventually, society would tell you what work you were allowed (required) to do. Consumer choice would be limited as well. You would be told what products you could buy and at what price.
    etc, etc etc.
  20. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    See, the thing is, I have a business degree, so "shareholder theory" vs. "stakeholder theory" is not new to me. That is how I know you have no clue of what you are talking about. None. Last I checked, Milton Friedman is NOT one of the US founding fathers, and widespread focus on his theory coincided with rampant growth in inequality and multiple market failures (eg., the Great Recession anyone?). You can argue that Friedman doctrine is better, but saying that the opponents of it are "out to destroy the foundation of America" is, again, a batsh1t insanity.

    To your question: nothing so far, other than paying taxes, signing up for a PTA, and bringing girls to Scouts (BSA). Seeing how I and my family consistently donated and volunteered, the bet is better than even that I'll catch up. When that happens, I hope I will not turn literally into a Pharisee from "Parable of Pharisee and Publican"; it's not like Pharisees did a lot of good to Israel in the long run now did they?

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