St. Josephs College of Maine

friendorfoe:
I think there seems to be a quick labeling of "conservative" versus "liberal" education biasness. Let's face this fact, the academic world is not that liberal as a whole.

The MBA at St Joe's is "not ahead of its time". If you look at NCU's or Baker College's curriculum, you will find that they are a little bit more on the qualitative side. I also spoke to the Baker College Director and he said their slant toward that direction is because of their history as a "career" college. They want to be a tiny less theoretical.

Each school has its choice to "market" its degree in whatever way it wants. To understand business schools and their programs, you should really take an expansive look at schools throughout the world. I did this about a couple of months back trying to understand what schools offer for their MBA curriculum. So I took a look at schools in Canada, the UK (Oxford, Cambridge) and even Australian schools. The UK schools (Oxford and Cambridge) have 1-year programs but examine them closely and their curriculum do resemble the US schools. I have a friend who was recently accepted to Cornell, so I also took a look at Cornell's syllabus. After the MBA, I also looked at MS in Management or MS in Leadership programs and saw the types of classes these programs have. And hence, I will tell you that the SJCME MBA program doesn't offer you the depth that an MS in Leadership/Management has. Neither does it offer you the insight/knowledge that most MBA programs have. Hence, I decided that I did not want to be in an in-between situation. I felt I would be better off doing an MBA and then opting to perhaps pursue an MS in Management.

I am not sure why DesElms feels inclined to think that we are trying to change your viewpoint or that we are "criticizing" SJCME or its program. I do not have any vested interest in persuading or dissuading you in the program or the school. I know that DesElms feels very biased toward the school for he respects the school at large. That's fair enough. But to make up your mind *without* any biasness from any person, you should go explore as many programs as you can, even brick and mortar ones. Maybe even talk to some Program Directors and get their thoughts about the MBA in general, not necesarily pertaining to just their schools. I've spoken to many directors and most are very willing to talk and help you figure things out.

An MBA in Criminal Justice, MBA in XYZ isn't less or more an MBA. Most MBA programs today allow you to concentrate and some allow you to graduate sooner without a concentration. But look at their core courses that are required. And yes, without a doubt that it's a pain to take economics, accounting, etc. etc. etc. However, take a step back and think about why they want managers to understand that.

I think that in the end, you have to ask yourself what you want a degree in and for what reason. If you want to learn more about leadership, as mentioned in previous postings, why not go for a degree in that area (management or org behavior). Rivers is right that the SJCME MBA will not give arm you with in-depth knowledge in leadership as compared to an MS in that area. And the MBA will also neither give you the breadth that MBA programs are designed to do. That was also a point I looked at very closely myself.

Would the SCJME MBA's quality or concentration matter in the professional world? I would wager to guess it would not. For that matter, neither would Baker College or NCU's. If you are a kid fresh out of school in your early 20s and have absolutely no experience, then you would have been better served going to an "Ivy League" MBA school where name recognition might help get your foot in the door. But if you are a professional looking to enrich your career to the next level...then you really have to take a closer look at the curriculum, school's reputation, quality, pricing, etc. etc.

You mentioned that you don't work in business. I am not sure what you mean by that. If you don't work in the business division of your company, then it might really help you understand more if you explored as many programs as you can, including if you can attend information sessions about MBA programs. Choosing a school and program that will fit you, your goals, etc. is a very private decision. You should listen to as many angles as possible on it and learn as much as you can about what MBAs are really about and then with that perspective, look at SJCME again and see if it's still what you want or not.

 

St. Joe's "feels" right for me but I will look into this a bit further. I have to admit, when Gregg first showed me the school, it was like a light had gone off in my head and I thought, "that’s it". I still think that way...I understand what St. Joes is trying to do. I still feel that this is a business degree and I still feel the degree is ahead of it's time. (We’ll have to disagree here I guess)

I'll slow down and carefully weigh my options...which I really don't have a choice since I recently hit an undergrad snag.

However, let me ask you...if I did earn a St. Joe's MBA...would YOU consider it a legitimate MBA?

If so why...if not why?

 

Thank You !

That was not my intention to have friendorfoe,second guess his choice. My intention was to merely state my view of the program as I see it. I will say it again I would not even be having this discussion if the degree was called a Master of Organizational Leadership or Master of Leadership.

QUOTE]Originally posted by DesElms


And it is an MBA, friendorfoe. I've thought more about the it's-really-just-master-of-organizational-somethingorother-in-MBA-clothing allegation and argument, and it just doesn't hold water. That's bona fide MBA-quality coursework you're seeing there. It's just not bogged-down with statistics and accounting and finance and whatever else most people with MBAs today wish they hadn't had to take. Mysery, remember, loves company. The status-quoers want you to suffer like they did... or plan on doing, as the case may be.

[/QUOTE]

Des Elms I am entering Med school at one of those places where you need not take all those pesky science classes . Would you like to be my first patient?
The point I'm trying to make is, there of course is a reason they make people take those courses, it's because they are applications in the real world. I have come across a few positions that were requiring a quantitative background. Furthermore, they may seem like mundane courses but I will say it again, this is what people expect from MBA graduates, a well rounded B-school education. If you want to study leadership then you go for an MS in leadership. I will agree that many MBA's do not use their knowledge of certain courses but they at least have a background and can read a financial statement . SO I will have to say I strongly disagree with you! When you say it's an MBA with out being bogged down with those pesky business classes. THAT is exactly what an MBA is a Master of Business Administarion. It is not a Master of leadership with some business classes sprinkled on top! What's next Biology without the labs or Math without the Calculus?
Now I will agree that some B-schools do put to much emphasis IMHO on quantitative Stats. but in any case I still see trhe need for Accounting, Marketing,etc in a MBA program.

QUOTE]Originally posted by DesElms

I remember when you first discovered the SJCME MBA, friendorfoe. I noticed it right away because it was the same kind of reaction that I first had to it. There's unquestionably something different and more holistically attractive about it. It's difficult to articulate, but you nevertheless got it right away. If you believe you'll be taking your MBA into hot-and-heavy, head-to-head competition with bright, young, willing-to-sell-their-souls MBA grads for top-tier, people-would-kill-for-them, high-paying, Fortune-anything, rat-race, new-Mercedes-every-two-years, no-time-for-marriage-or-family, bereft-of-ethics-like-the-Enron-guys, spend-too-much-time-at-Hooters, die-of-an-early-heart-attack jobs, then by all means go get a more traditional MBA like speedoflight and Rivers have got your head all turned-around, thinking about, now.
[/QUOTE]
Who said you had no romantic in you Des Elms... After that bit I'm sure anyone reading this thread is going to get there MBA! I here Galvin is going to hand out flyers that say "Yes! I want an early heart attack", Not to be out done Wharton has there own "Yes, I want to spend too much time staring at the Hooters girls!"

 

SJCME's MBA progam... very, very bad

friendorfoe, I've changed my mind. I think, in your case, that speedoflight and Rivers are right. The SJCME MBA program is not for you after all. I think you should get it out of your head and heart and move on to something far more conventional, utilitarian, thoroughly analyzed, and more obviously inspired. In that area, either NCU's or Baker College's MBA cirriculum clearly puts SJCME's to shame!

Actually, what I think you really should do is stop thinking about it at all for now. Your plate's full with your bachelors troubles. By the time you're finally ready, there will be no shortage of much, much higher quality distance learning MBA programs out there that are either new; or which are existing but have, by then, gotten even better. Don't get ahead of yourself.

But one way or the other, when you are finished at Kaplan, take my advice and just strike SJCME's MBA program off your list altogether... and never revisit it. It's not for you. In fact, it's clearly not for anyone!

The SJCME MBA is just for posers and paper tigers, anyhow. Heck, it's not even an MBA! In fact, it doesn't know what it wants to be. It's neither sufficiently narrowly-focused in the area of leadership to live-up to being a degree in that; nor is it sufficiently broadly-based in the common areas of study that every self-respecting MBA program must have, at all costs, in order to earn that moniker. The Sisters of Mercy, being the disingenuous bitches for which they are so infamous, really only named the program "MBA" as a marketing ploy... because, after all, all they really want is your money. They're well-known for that kind of thing, you know! And, anyway, what the hell do a buncha' nuns know about actually managing anything. Good grief, what a worthless piece-o-crap that program is. Whatever in the world came over me, I will never know. The regional accreditor should be notified at once of SJCME's wanton underhandedness. The nerve of that place, calling such a substandard program an "MBA." It boggles the mind. I'm so ashamed.

I'm sorry I misguided you, friendorfoe... I really am. I feel just awful.

Please... so that I can sleep at night knowing that I didn't lead someone astray after all: Please follow speedoflight's and Rivers's reasoned, well-researched -- inordinately so, in fact -- wholly unbiased recommendations, and go get a really quality MBA that won't make you feel underskilled and/or, moreover, part of anything even remotely special. You'll be a far, far better manager once you've sufficiently developed your left brain so that you finally think like they do. Lockstep obviously has charms that have somehow evaded me in this life. I'm just so embarrassed.

And I'm also done here.

Good luck... and I really mean that. Really.

 

Well I think you actually completely understand my critique of this degree after your post previous to the one quoted above.

If you did earn an MBA from Saint Joe's it is a legitimate to put MBA after your name. I have already stated I think it lacks in the business class area. I again, will say it I think it's an excellent program and I might have considered it if I was in the market for a leadership degree. I just think it's a sterch to call it a Master of Business Administration degree when the obvious emphasis is on leadership and the organization.

 

Okay...I'm still listening. BTW...Gregg, I think some of that dripping sarcasm stained my shirt.

 

friendorfoe:
Not to sound like I'm agreeing for the sake of doing so but I do agree with what Rivers has said here. Based on what I see from the curriculum, overall school reputation, the program is not sub-par. None of us here can dispute it is a far more qualitative program than most. There's even an article in Harvard Business Review a few months ago that spoke about how many business programs are too academic and quantitative. I would agree with this assessment because there are certainly programs that lean heavily toward requiring you to do so many quantitative, math based classes and leaving you with just a few non-math classes. In my opinion, there's not that much value for the student unless he/she wants to head toward the finance area.

Personally, I would love to see that a lot more schools take a leap toward a more qualitative approach for their MBA programs. I think that the qualitative approach is more in sync with what a lot of managers need today. Most want to learn about management, strategic marketing, etc. and not be mired down in many heavy math based classes.

Is the SJCME MBA a legit MBA? It is a legit MBA from an RA school. All that we have said is that the MBA is quite light on other classes that could help give you a little bit more of a rounded business education.

Take a look at NCU's curriculum.
http://www.ncu.edu/university_information/dpro_spec.asp?dpro_id=19&dpro_section_main_id=324

Please do not misunderstand and think I'm saying this is the model program to look at. I'm just pointing it out to you to look at its curriculum. It is not a heavily quantitative program for it doesn't require you to take like 2-3 foundation accounting classes, stat, calculus, quantitative analysis, etc. But the program does help to round you out by asking you to take 1 class in each "major" area. And now take a look at SJCME's MBA. Look at the focus of the degree itself. It is extremely soft on "business" classes. (One could even argue to say that the NCU program is soft on traditional business courses despite the few that you have to take). Hence, that's why we pointed out that it's a bit of a stretch to call it an MBA when it leans so much to the org behavior/management area.

It sounds to me that you are looking for a program that has a more qualitative approach. If that is the case, there are a few that are like that. Not that many though since most programs are still very traditional and quantitative based.

 

Not for nothing, but all four of you guys are overanalyzing this entire situation. I looked hard at SJCME's MBA program, just like you guys have done. I also looked hard a Baker College, Bellevue College as well as most of the local B&M colleges here in Southwest CT. They all offer MBAs. If you graduate from any of the programs, you've got an MBA. If an employer looks differently at a degree from Baker College because it's not Southern CT State U., that's his right. Buy your tickets and take your chances. I decided to get my MBA through Baker (just finished my second course) exactly because it's "conventional, utilitarian, thoroughly analyzed, and more obviously inspired" and becase it offers a concentration in healthcare management. I'm in an industry where it's unlikely that I will be competing for positions against UCONN and SCSU MBA grads. That's what friendorfoe should be worried about, who will you likely be competing for positions against once you graduate. If it's AACSB program grads, go to an AACSB accredited program. If not, then find a program that fits your needs. All of these abstract questions about what an MBA is and is this or that MBA legit? It's all hot air. Find a program that is competative in the market that you expect to compete in and get to it. Good luck, and I hope everyone's hard work in thier respective programs pays off.

 

I do agree with you that in the end, it's what you want your degree and education for.

To me, I wouldn't even bother with what schools competing candidates went to, particularly if you already have x years of experience. It's a completely different ballgame for someone who is a seasoned professional returning to school versus some young kid with nada experience. In the latter case, there's absolutely no traction for any manager/employer to base anything to, so they look at the school and the degree. Can anyone blame them for this? But when you're a seasoned professional with x years and have worked for y companies and producing z results, all they look to see is what degrees you hold (if that) and then go right into talking to you about your work experience. No seasoned professional I've personally known has ever been questioned about the school they went to or the degree they hold. In fact, I know a COO who doesn't even hold a management degree and there are many, many out there.

So if you, after examining closely at SCJME or whatever school and decide that it's what's for you, then go for it. It's very important for you to enjoy the experience and feel you're learning something. Again, I'm not persuading or dissuading you for or against anything. Look at SJCME's MBA, look at NCU, Baker, etc. etc. etc. etc. and then look at other schools' MS in Mgmt and then swing around to ask yourself what you want and feel you're going to get the best value for you.

My past postings on this thread is not at all to diss SCJME or its MBA. You had asked about it and I gave an opinion (strictly my own view) about the nature of its MBA compared in context to some of the more "traditional" MBA programs out there. As a consumer, you are wise to question such issues. Afterall, if you were to say buy a car, you would probably have 10x more questions about the car itself. And I do really feel that it's time for "traditional" MBA programs to shift a little more to the qualitative side.

 

Not to sound like I am, well umm back tracking but. Very well said! I agree!
Where I differ is I just think there should be some standard to an MBA education and I do believe there is a certain expectation of knowledge that comes with the degree. Just like any masters degree you are suppose have an advanced knowledge of the subject. Now I'm not saying that all schools shouldn't have some say in their curriculum, but there should be some resemblance of a common core (and there generally is).

 

MBA in Leadership

I am newly in the St. Joe's MBA program - so far, so good. I already work as a manager in a major company, and already make an "MBA salary" so ask me if I care if it has the abracadabra biz school accred...or whatever it's called. From what I gather, it's something conferred on research institutions, which is nice, but many HR folks won't have ever heard of it.

The St. Joe's degree is perfect for people who work well with very little direction - it's not heavy on the math stuff, but know what? I will never be a CFO - my company has a whole staff of accountants and other assorted number-nerds, so I don't need a lot of that. And if I ever do, (say Excel spreadsheets mysteriously disappear from the earth) I can take a class or two later.

I have a sister at HBS - and that is a great program for her - since she is 22 and her previous business experience has involved hairnets and cash registers. I have another close relative who taught at one of the nation's "top" b-schools, and many more who were VPs and higher at Fortune 500s - most of whom never went beyond a BA - so I know a little bit about the subject of business education.

I have had nothing but good experiences with St. Joe's so far - I'm learning a lot which I can take back to my team. My company is paying for the degree, so cost wasn't the reason why I chose it, but it is priced right. Frankly, the courses all appear to be very interesting - and if you're going to spend your free time, and down-time at airports reading leadership and management books, why not get a degree in the process. And as a Catholic, I like the idea of supporting a Catholic school.

The Sisters of Mercy are a great bunch too, very deserving of support - their vision for quality education is widely known - and as a Catholic with hiring authority, I will be honest and admit that a Catholic - or other Christian - school on a resume will grab my attention - I am sure I am not the only manager who feels that way. I will know that ethics and morality were stressed along with the usual subjects. In my line - I cannot place a high enough premium on ethics.

By the way - Freindorfoe - I am an X-cop, used to be out in TX as well - even if you stay in that field (I sort of am) an MBA is a great tool to have - much more versatile than a Masters in CJ Administration. If you do decide to go to St. Joe's - I'd be glad to offer any help I can!

 

Hey, I really appreciate it. Yes St. Joes is still on my “to do” list. However since you were a cop in the big TX you know that a NA degree is fairly limited…so I had to stop mid stride and transfer all of my undergrad credits to a RA school to be able to receive credit for having a BS in the eyes of the Commission….thus I posted here on this forum and found that Gregg DesElms had yet another Ace up his sleeve and he pointed me in the direction of Southwestern College in Kansas, which incidentally is a Methodist school. So far I’m really fired up and expect to finish in the next 18 to 24 months. Upon completion of this, St. Joe’s is fixed firmly in my sights.

 

The Fifth Discipline

In the meantime - get two books:

The Fifth Discipline and the Fifth Discipline Fieldbook.

If you have the time to really get into these books, you'll be ahead of the game for the first class. AND you'll learn some cool stuff too that will help you in law enforcement just as it will in management. It's like the "Verbal Judo" of management.

Some goofy, new-agey stuff in it, but overall very helpful.

Here's another thought - I run across many high-ranking and very well paid people with MBAs from AIU and UoP and other less than prestigious schools. Some even teach college on the side. Sure, McKinsey or the Bank of London might not hire them as a first choice...or last, but federal agencies and Wal-Mart sure as heck will. Maybe they won't teach at Yale - but they might pick up some extra bucks teaching at the community college - where hardworking young adults are also eagrer to better themselves.

Some might turn their coke-fueled noses up at anything less than Wharton and think that 80 to 100K is chicken scratch...it's all a matter of perspective. Some might die without a blonde mistress, BMW, overpriced nouvelle cuisine and $700 bottles of wine...I happen to like my redheaded wife of six years, Chevy trucks, fried chicken and sweet tea - so I think I can live with my St. Joe's degree and upper-middle class employment opportunities.

 

Re: The Fifth Discipline

Ohgod... that's funny.

And it's sort of the blue-collar (not intended as a slight, by the way) version of my everything-ain't-gotta'-be-AACSB-accredited-to-be-credible argument. I love it!

Thanks, antraeindubh... and welcome!

 

I'll order those books ASAP. Thanks...

That was funny BTW.

 

Here's a very, very good article about what an MBA education can or cannot bring:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/83/mbamenace.html

 

IMO, there are too many managers lacking any understanding of the business they manage. People who do understand the business are told they (me, too often) are wrong because "studies show" something or other.

 

That article is dead on....sort of.

I find the best way to learn how to manage is to get into management itself...however in order to avoid disaster it should be a gradual process. When I got promoted to field supervisor I was in WAY over my head but quickly caught up…through making mistakes and correcting them. Upon becoming a lead supervisor, the work got harder but I was more capable of doing it, even though the amount of employees I supervise doubled. If I ever become a Shift Commander, it will be harder, but at that point the challenge that a transition brings will be more familiar.

I don't see how people can jump from no management "hands on" experience to being a top manager, where the mistakes carry much larger consequences. I don't see how those new "top managers" can keep their sanity. Starting out with a small group where small mistakes will happen with small consequences will teach you more than an Harvard MBA will about managing a company's most valuable and expensive assets, it's people….and in the long run it’ll be better for that young manager’s health and sanity.

 

Allow me to revive this thread, following Gregg's link from another thread. I have become very interested in St Joe's MBA following the discussions, and I have some concerns/questions:

* I am torn about the in-between nature of this MBA: it is not totally MA in Leadership and it is not totally an MBA with its traditional classes. I understand and followed the discussion in this thread. But I have a previous experience of getting my B.S in Information Systems, and it is also quite a hybrid degree, so banks and other consulting firms frown at my non-Business Admin background, and tech companies don't like my non-Computer Sci background. I was left with trying to get some certifications and work for $10-15/hr tech support jobs. I worked at 2 and was let go at both because of outsourcing...but that's another matter and business danger....

* Christian nature of the college: what does that mean? Do they promote Christian values and education in their courses. Are students of other religious background at a disadvantage?

*Personal thought: I like the Leadership emphasis of this degree, since I am currently in the process of submitting a packet for Army OCS, and Leadership is a very prized and valued quality to develop and nurture. In addition to that, with the forthcoming training and deployments, enrollement in an online program is almost imperative for me. I have already experienced the misfortune of taking 3 classes, unexpectedly deploy mid-semester to another country, and come back to 3 beautiful "F"s staring at me, and having to explain to my commander why I have to reimburse tuition assistance back to the Education Center.

I really like the thoughts of this program, since I was exploring HWMBA also, but was really concerned about the lonely nature of that program, as opposed to at least having a lifeline to the professor with this degree.

Anyone, feel free to interject any thoughts or advice. Thank you.

 

Quite a curious little MBA program, isn't it. And regionally-accredited, too. It's a mystery.

The IT/high-tech industry is in great turmoil. People with a quarter century's worth of experience, and even masters degrees in one flavor or another of "information technology" or "information systems" can tell similar tales of woe. The experiences of those trying to keep it pulled together in the IT industry are probably not a good barometer. Your problem, I dare say, was probably not so much the degree (no matter what people may have told you) but, rather, the times... which, for IT people, are a changin'.

No worries, SanfuRacer. Colleges/universities owned and operated by Chrisitan denominations (Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc.) are very common; and are not using the opportunity to recruit or brainwash... and especially not to make anyone uncomfortable. The regional accreditor will not let a school represent a course as secular in nature and then trick you with religious dogma once you're in the class. An accounting class is an accounting class is an accounting class, whether it's a a state-owned college/university, or one owned by a bunch of nuns. If a course is labeled religious, then, yes, it might be presented with a denominational slant that favors whatever church body owns the institution; but a business course is a business course.

Now, that said, at SJCME, the ethical sensibilities of the Sisters of Mercy no doubt guided the creators of the MBA in Quality Leadership as to curriculum... hence the heavy emphasis on leadership and ethics courses, and less emphasis on the more technical nuts and bolts of managing a business. The Sisters buy-in to the notion that things are managed, and people are led. It's a decidedly leading-of-people-oriented program... created by people with a high sense of integrity and accountability. To the degree that those sorts of things tend to be what Chrisitians value, sure, there was, in that sense, a Chrisitian influence in the program's design. But, once that was done, the business of presenting the courses -- and their content -- is as secular as at any state-run institution. No one at SJCME is driving home the fine points of management by citing biblical passages. It just doesn't work that way.

With schools like St. Joseph's College of Maine (SJCME; Catholic owned/operated), and/or Southwestern College of Winfield Kansas (SCKANS; Methodist owned/operated), the student taking courses that have nothing to do with religion will barely know the school has religious ownership. It's very secular. Don't worry about it.

Maybe I could have shortened the answer by just pointing out that students who are agnostics, atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and members of all manner of other faith groups routinely attend colleges like SJCME or SCKANS. That's what I meant when I wrote, in other threads, that, for example, SCKANS is owned by the United Methodist Church (UMC)... "but not so's ya'd notice"... that's what that meant.

Your question/fear is valid, but unsound. Fear not. You'll be fine.

Maybe it's just me, but I cannot think of a master's degree that would be more valuable to an officer in training than one with "leadership" as its focus... be it the MBA in Quality Leadership at SJCME, or the MA in Leadership at SCKANS. Really... it's just a perfect fit, it seems to me.

And if you're in the active military, you can be excused from the one-time, residential summer intensive. Did you know that? Active military can get all the way through the SJCME MBA program without ever setting foot on the campus.

Which kinda' dovetails back into my earlier point about SJCME's reputation for not treating students like cattle.

The HWMBA can feel like a truly solitary endeavor. Somewhere (where I can't put my finger on it at this moment, of course) I've got a bookmark to a web page by a guy who went through the HWMBA program, and he tells all about it -- almost like a journal -- and it's pretty darned different from a program like this SJCME MBA. If anyone reading this happens to have that link handy and can post it, please do so SnafuRacer can read it. It's quite eye-opening with respect to the HWMBA program.

I'd say there's no question that you will feel more connected to something with the SJCME MBA program that you would with the HWMBA. Whether or not that's a good thing depends, I suppose, on the student and his/her temperament... among many other factors.

Well... one thing about this particular thread is that somewhere in all the heat and rhetoric some pretty good points got made... some especially good points about why the SJCME MBA program might not be for everyone. I'm glad you waded through it. I think you've got a pretty good notion, now, of the pros and cons... and I thank Rivers and Speedoflight for getting in there and fighting the good fight. All things considered, it was very enlightening, I think. I hope it's helping you.