skipping the bachelor

Dear Gavin and Vinod:

In regard to the earlier silliness--

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Yours for international understanding,

Janko the Mad Priest

 

Re: No free passes ...

Quite true. Given the nature of the exam, the failure rate and the prestige related to the degree, it is likely more difficult than four years of undergraduate study.




Tom Nixon

 

Re: Re: No free passes ...

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Four years of study is a very long time to stay focused and pass courses. If you can't handle the time as an undergrad, you shouldn't be admitted to graduate school. No matter how hard the exam, preparing for it can't possibly be harder then dedicating four years to full time study.

 

No need to apologize. You have every right to voice your opinions. And even though I disagree with some of them, I enjoy hearing other viewpoints.

Things got a little heated because, after posting my own opinion, a purportedly tolerant academic tried using irrelevant data to discredit me. I don't think she liked my use of the word tomfoolery, but I was just being honest.

I hear what you are saying. However, if someone doesn't want to spend time in school, why should they be provided with an opportunity to use the same credential as those who did?

Since there are so many properly accredited distance learning institutions available these days, almost everyone has the luxury to earn an affordable and accredited degree. If for some reason they can't afford it, they can often get financial aid.

Further, with the existence of accelerated degree programs that utilize credit by examination and portfolio, students can earn their undergraduate degree in less than four years.

You are probably right. I am sure that there are many business people with mounds of experience and a wealth of knowledge. These individuals can earn much of their undergraduate degrees via portfolio and exam. This reduces the time investment required. See www.bain4weeks.com

I disagree, and here is why. The MBA or Master of Business Administration is a graduate level degree. This means it comes after undergraduate study. If you allow non degreed applicants to enter just because they have work experience, the MBA would no longer be a graduate degree. It would really just amount to nothing more than a glorified Associate’s degree. If the professor’s policy ever became common practice, it would probably end up devaluing the credential.

College and grad school admissions should be fair, don’t you think? Do you think it would be fair for a physician assistant or lpn to directly enter medical school without the appropriate level of undergraduate education. There are many knowledgeable nurses and physician assistants who learn on the job, but their experience won’t get them in to medical school. In my opinion, the same should apply here.

As far as MBA prerequisites go, it seems like most programs require an accredited Bachelor’s degree consisting of several business related courses such as accounting. Sometimes a GMAT score is also required. These seem to be reasonable requirements for graduate school entry.

As far as the PhD politicians, I would be upset if they were awarded earned doctorates. But as far as I know, when famous people are handed doctorates without actually studying and researching, the degrees are considered honorary.

Yes, Aspen is definitely a legitimate U.S. institution. They are nationally accredited by the Distance Education and Training Council (DETC). I am a big fan of national accreditation, especially DETC accreditation. However, my patience with some of their member schools is wearing thin.

In addition to this MBA policy of theirs, they don’t seem to be doing much to increase the utility of their degrees and/or credits. Schools in their position should be doing more to ease the national to regional transfer process. I believe it essential for schools like Aspen to form as many articulation agreements as possible, and more importantly, submit courses for ACE review. But that is a different topic for another day.

From where I sit, the United States is clearly the best country on earth. I love my country and I am proud to say so. People accuse the Unites States for not doing enough any time there is a catastrophe, plague, war, etc. We get blamed for almost everything, but in spite of this, we still contribute more to the world community than anyone else.

If you feel the same way about where you live, and are just as proud I am, don’t be reluctant to say so out of fear of what others may think. If people hate you for thinking you live in the greatest country on earth, so be it.

I am proud of my country, or more importantly, of my God Jesus Christ. This is nothing to be ashamed of! I shouldn’t have to tip-toe around my love of God and country, and you shouldn’t either.

And may God bless you!

 

Mr. Bushno,
I understand that in your opinion is that a undergraduate degree should be a requirement for a Masters programme. Yet you do not list any valid point other than you feel it is a right of passage.

Professor Kennedy has by using hard data at the University of Edinburgh has at least show in some instances certain popluations can indeed excell later in life.
Talking from personal experience I dropped out of undergraduate study when I was 22 because of finances and work schedule. It was the best thing I ever did I have since gone back(yes I got my undergrad degree and I hope to Start my MBA programme this fall) becasue with age comes wisdom and I have excelled far more than my wildest dreams acedemically and I have found a career path which was something I lacked as a youth(not that 29 is old).

Mr. Bushno there are also many people who dropped out of college who never formally got an education yet were at the forefront of their field(e.g. Albert Einstein). I would Say William(Bill) Gates is no slouch either.

ALso I would never consider any solely DETC accrediated school a legitmate accrediation in the US only the R.A. and professional accrediations(e.g. AACSB) are the true measure.(but this is another argument)

THis is obsurd because if the course wor is that of a graduate degree then there should be no arguement as to whether or not the degree is legitimate as long as it is from a accrediated and respected institiution of learning.

Furthermore, you have made me embarassed to admit I live in the same country as you. In your Nationalistic opinion The United States may be the greatest. The united States will undoubtly go the same way as the British Empire before her. My prediction for the 21st Century is that the E.U will be the economic powerhouse. Also remind me if The US is so great how come so many americans don't have health care? no other industrialised country can say the same.

As far as your God comment remember the teachings of Friedrich Nietszche " God is Dead"

 

Re: Re: Re: No free passes ...

Sure it can. I knew many, many students who coasted and graduated. Might have taken them five years, but they did graduate.

You are not going to coast and pass one of those exams. Just isn't going to happen.


Tom Nixon

 

Hey Tom: Notice how dumbth breeds dumbth? (I fear for the republic.) Janko

 

4 more years...

Bushno? I say Bush YES! With 61+ million votes (the most in history) and a majority that Clinton never got, our great leader will be in office for four more years. And get used to the name Bush, because Jeb Bush (W's brother and Florida Governor) could easily be our next president.

1) A Master's degree is a graduate degree; meaning it comes after undergraduate education. Allowing students to enter without the proper credentials harms degreed applicants and reduces the value of the degree. Do you really want a glorified Associate's degree?

2) Again, in many ways a Bachelor's degree is a right of passage. Many skills are obtained in college that can not be learned in the workplace. Some brilliant business men are poor writers and researchers. Graduate school is not where you go to learn the basics.

3) The only thing Professor Kennedy has proven is that some people can succeed at the graduate level without a college degree. So what? This doesn't make it right. Should my brilliant scientist Uncle be permitted to enter a doctoral program even though he never finished high school?

4) The Professor's program seems to be an exception to the norm; at least here in civilization. If the idea was so great, more schools would be following suit.

5) Aside from boasting about his huge (not that huge) sample size, what else does he have to rely on. Did he publish research based on that sample? If so, where is it?

Congratulations for getting back in to school, and completing your undergraduate education. Good luck with that MBA 'programme'. You may not need luck, though, since you'll be studying with college, and maybe even some high school, dropouts.

Actually, it’s accreditation, not accrediation. And the United States Department of Education disagrees with you. Visit www.chea.org or www.ed.gov for a list of recognized U.S. accrediting agencies. All institutional accreditors listed are considered to be equally legitimate.

There are some transfer of credit issues regarding national versus regional accreditation. However, the massive Republican majorities in the U.S. House and Senate could be nipping this in the bud shortly. See HR 3311 and HR 4283. Either way, I’ll take a nationally accredited U.S. degree over a foreign one any day.

If high school and college dropouts begin getting MBA’s in the masses, rest assured, the value of your degree will decline.

Spoken like a true patriot! Or, are you an imposter? I would guess by your writing (programme, etc) that you were not born and raised here. Are you even a citizen? Either way, our health care system is far better than Canada’s socialized mess. Our indigent citizens are never denied emergency medical treatment. Our uninsured citizenry can also receive regular care, by visiting free clinics and county hospitals. Our free clinics provide better service than the best Canada has.

Further, if the indigent persons aren’t too lazy to get out of bed and take a trip to the public assistance office, they can get full HMO or Blue Cross insurance through their State’s Department of Public Welfare. Then, they will have the exact same (often better) insurance as working folk.

Finally, kiddo, the election is over, so stop spouting off inaccurate Democratic talking points. The United States will remain the world power, so the EU better learn to like it.

God is alive and well, and he is here with each one of us. It is your God given right to be a heathen, and I respect your choice. However, I will pray for you in hopes that you one day find Jesus Christ OUR Lord and Savior.

 

Church wine and degreeinfo...

Another quality contribution, Janko.

 

Sorry to jump back into the conversation, since it is progressing so well on its own...

But it looks to me like you just disagreed with yourself. I thought the point of education was to learn. Isn't that correct? Up to this point you have said that it isn't fair for someone to skip the bachelors and head straight to a Masters. Your reasoning (if I understand it correctly) is that it is a sort of rite of passage to spend four grueling years in undergraduate study to earn their dues.

But now you say, well, if they will spend a month taking some tests, then it would be OK. I still don't see alot of dues being paid. Sounds like they are studying for a few tests and taking them, similar to what Prof Kennedy and Tom have suggested.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth (or fingers as the case may be), but simply stating how it looks to me from what you have written. If I am getting it wrong, please feel free to correct my interpretation...

It appears that more than the time, you are simply wanting people to have to pay the extra money for the BA before putting up the bucks for a Masters.

clint

 

Clint, I suppose it is theoretically possible to complete that many exams in a month, but I don't think it has ever actually happened.

You'll have to ask those here who know more about it, but I think it would take a couple years to study for and complete 120 credits hours worth of examination.

I do know that it often takes weeks just to get an exam date. And if you fail, you must wait six months for a retest. So, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to go in unprepared.

In any event, all I was saying is that if the MBA applicants are as smart and experienced as Professor Kennedy alleges, they could legitimately cut time off of their four years. They would also be learning while studying to pass the tests.

I'm personally not a big fan of the credit bank schools, but they do provide a legitimate way for knowledgable folks to prove what they know, and earn a degree in a shorter amount of time. I'm still guessing years for most who start from scratch, though.

 

I understand that. I have no idea how long a normal person could figure to take to complete the panel of tests. But say it took a few months.

What would be the difference between taking those tests to show that they had the knowledge necessary to acquire a BA and the same person taking exams that show they have the knowledge necessary to get a graduate diploma? Either way they are taking tests that demonstrate their knowledge.

I say it is proper to let them begin as high as they can. If they are not adequately prepared for graduate work through their life experience, then they will be unable to proceed and be forced to turn to undergraduate work.

However, it seems silly to me to make them return to undergrad work if it is only a rite of passage. Undergrad work is designed to instill information in young minds - the knowledge these particular people have acquired through their life experience. Either way they have learned it.

If they are knowledgeable enough to move into MBA work, then good for them.

I don't see the advantage of taking the Clep tests if it is possible for them to do MBA work.

thats the way I see it anyway,
clint

 

I am sorry to say I disagree with the healthcare part. I would assume america has a good healthcare set up however not every people get assistance by the government. I know a chat friend who was refused a Title X1X coverage(State Medicaid) even though she has 3 kids and a $6 bucks an hour job which aparently fetches her $1200 and out of which she has to spend $300 a month on transport only. She does not even have the money to buy her kids an icecream. Medicare wont cover her as she is not 65 and neither is she disabled or physically challenged. Blue Cross and Blue Shield HMO coverage was taken by her briefly but that did not help her either.

Cuz although your country the "Great America" (as Mr.Bush fondly puts it), has EMTALA provisions not to refuse a patient from an emergency situation, the utility review department of BCBS refused an retro-authorization and she was burried with $5000 bill stating services were non-covered and the providers of medical service can bill the patient. She tried all her means and finally had to agree with a payment plan of $300 a month. Hospital Charity programs did not accept her proof of income to be qualifying for a discount. I have known many chat buddies of mine from the USA(by the way I learnt a lot from them about the country) complaining about the healthcare system. Let me put it this way, the insurance companies in USA deny claims from providers or patients all day long and in the process cut out a fat pay check to their top executives. If you are to see the www.sec.gov website, you can see the company filings and see UHC CEO gets a pay-check of $91m including stock options and bonuses. Since it is listed in Sec.gov, I dont have a problem revealing the same as the content is freely available in the internet for public viewing. In fact UHC wants people to see the same for earning company good-will and share-holder value, so there are no ramifications that I have overlooked to post that info.

(The moderators may still have the right to edit the same)

Coming back to the CEO salaries, it is therefore a very obvious idea of denying claims by insurance companies and later behave cunningly like a Fox stating the claims are past the filing limitation for appealing. Among the provider-patient-Insurance company set up, the insurance company profits a lot. But people are not aware of a federal act named ERISA(or Employee retirement insurance security Act) which can nail Insuance companies that holds fiduciary responsibilities for Group health plans sponsored by employers to their employees. An adverse benefit determination can be challenged by the patient by taking the insurance carrier to the court. This is possible for group health plans. But for individual policies, there is always God to take care of the sins the insurance companies do. It is also a good idea for the people in America to take up medical savings account instead of insurance policies. Just a suggestion. In India we do not have that sort of a set-up. People pay per visit to the doctors/hospitals. We are also coming up with Group health plans etc... and slowly we will be going your way(America's way).

The best set-up in my opinion is have government facilities built that are free of cost to the needy. Just a proof of income is all it needs to get admission. This would be a better managed care than most Medical Assistance programs in USA.

Coming back to the original discussion about MBA's without undergrad, Mr.Bush, I would have to say that not all five fingers are the same. Each person's thought process may have evolved into what it is right now due to several sircumstantial events. So I respect your opinion and it makes sense to see things your way. However I am disinterested or unbiased upon this issue and still continue to think that people ought to be given a chance to earn their MBA if they qualify based on their work experience. It is also unlike a nurse being given the Medical doctor award as professional liability differs with these two professions all to gether. A nurse cannot be given the Doctor status because she can practice medicine as a result of the same and can cause harm to human life. But can a non-undergrad by earning his MBA, cause harm to human-life? Also what makes you not to take a dim view of an MBA's nature. It means a Master of Business administration. If a person does well managing day-to-day business activities, he qualifies for mastering the process through a streamlined academic curriculum that directs him to apply the same in a focussed way. He may right now be a ray of light and perhaps an MBA can give him focus and turn him into a Laser(Light amplification by stimulated radiation emission). And thats all it matters to him. Its time you re-evaluate your prejudice against this issue.

Thanks and Regards,
Vinod Gopal

 

Oh, I think you and Rivers are about evenly matched.
I'll just bask in the light from the East and Northeast.

 

Lettuce pray...

Janko: You are a hilarious fella. You should start tellin funnies at open mic night.

Well, I'm done for the week. I can't keep up with your 4.66, so I'm going to head to bed. See ya at church, you silly country preacher.

 

On behalf of the telethon, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Messrs. Kennedy, Nixon, Hale, and Gopal for their contributions to making this a better world for all of us.

 

Harsh! But I love you anyway. Not in a gay way, just a normal brotherly way.

 

Thanks Janko,
I am just happy to be able to help out in the little ways that I can...

you guys should go get some sleep...

its late over there (unless you are over here)

clint

 

Good night guys. It was a great topic of discussion and Thanks Uncle Janko.

Thanks and regards,
Vinod Gopal

 

Re: Re: Re: No free passes ...

Would it be fair to admit an applicant with an MBA/4 year degree that scored low on the GRE/GMAT's over a No bachelor/MBA that scored very highly on those tests?

Colleges use many different methods to determine the most qualified candidates. What they look for is the individual that shows the most promise and can perform at the desired level.

Most US colleges will accept a person that skipped high school and earned a GED for entry into a bachelor degree. I don't see how this is any different than skipping a bachelors, and going on to the MBA. In both cases they have to prove that they are on the same academic level as every other student accepted into the program.