Searching for a DBA Program

Re: California Pacific University

Raymond,

Write to me at [email protected] and I'll answer any questions that I can answer about the DBA. For current cost information, you should contact California Pacific University (http://www.cpu.edu). (By the way, the reason why I spell out the name is because folks confuse the acronym CPU with the old Columbia Pacific University.)

Have a great weekend!

Best wishes,

Dave

 

Hi Tom:

I earned the California Pacific University DBA in 1996. To the best of my knowledge, Cal-Pacific is not pursuing DETC at this time, and will continue with state approval. When I was in the program, it consisted of 12 courses, a proposal, doctoral project (field project, thesis, or dissertation), and a proctored comprehensive exam. The cost was very modest, around $4,000 as I recall. I spent every waking hour outside of work doing the program, and finished it in one year almost to the day. The degree has been very useful in my business career, and I have been totally satisfied with it. I would recommend that you look into it. If however, you are certain that you will need an RA degree (e.g., for university teaching), then this is clearly not the choice for you. Good luck!

 

Dr. Dave,

Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

 

A doctorate in 12 months?!?

Unless you are a major academic with endless published papers to your credit I do not see how any worthwhile doctorate can be achieved in 12 months - especially by part-time study! I do know someone who obtained her doctorate (proper university in the UK) in 24 months-the minimum period allowed for full-time study at this particular university (in most it is 3 years FT study and 4 years PT) but she had already done much of the research prior to registration and was a full-time academic researcher before she registered.

Ehm!

AJJ

 

Re: A doctorate in 12 months?!?

Assuming you have investigated California Pacific University's DBA program, I would be interested in hearing what you think is missing from the program that makes it possible to matriculate in twelve months. Any thoughts?

I do know that the program is self-paced, so if one had a solid idea for an appropriate doctoral project, a twelve month completion time is possible. Like all graduate study, the speed of completion is partly a function of how much time you can devote.

Cheers,

Dave

 

Diasagree!

The problem is I'm comparing a US doctorate with a UK one! I'm familiar with both! By and large a research master's degree in the Uk is roughly equivalent to what a 'typical' US doctoral degree requires - often the research master's goes beyond the USD doctoral level. I'm talking about RA doctoral degrees.

In most subjects, certainly in the social sciences, it would take 18 months just to do the field work/research and litertaure reviews, unless someone's job actually involved research. The work must 'contribute to knowledge'! This is where the US doctorate often doesn't shape up in that it is so much course based with little requirement on research that makes a contribution to knowledge - that is, comes up with a new slant on things. It took me 12 months just to do the reading and the writing for the literature reviews alone! So, how 'thorough' is a 12 months doctorate????

AJJ

 

To start, there is a difference between academic and professional doctorates, for example the PhD versus the DBA. The former focuses on knowledge creation within an extremely narrow and specialized area within a discipline. The latter doctorate, far more broad and generalized, focuses on the practical application of existing theory in structuring and solving problems in the field. Thus, the intent of the DBA, DHS, PsyD, DEng, DPA, etc. is quite different from the PhD.

Next, if the mindset is that "it's impossible" to finish a professional degree in a year, then it will indeed be impossible. I never think that way. Cal-Pacific's DBA is self-paced. So the first factor is this: one does not have to attend classes part-time, doing 2 courses per semester over six semesters for a year and a half just to complete the course load phase. While that style of learning suited me in my 20s and 30s, busy executives and professionals need an entirely different model, and self-paced learning (DL or on-line) offers exactly that opportunity.

So, outside of employment, if one can fully commit to to the discipline of spending every waking hour including all nights and weekends in the the single pursuit of completing readings and coursework (as I did), then that's the first major hurdle cleared. Second factor: if one already knows the direction of the doctoral project and can manage it as aggressively as the coursework, then that too can be accelerated. Bear in mind that at Cal-Pacific the doctoral project can be a significant field project within a company, a doctoral thesis involving classic library reasearch, or a dissertation involving original research. So there is flexibilty. I chose the thesis route. Undoubtedly some DBA's from Cal-Pacific did take far longer than I to complete the program. So my completion time should not be construed as the norm by any means either.

I was most careful to point out in my earlier post the caveat that Cal-Pacific is NOT for everybody. If one is seeking the DBA as a teaching credential, or needs an RA degree for any other reason, that is not the place to enroll. Period! In the world of business, on the other hand, the MBA is nearly universally seen as the terminal degree. There is seldom if ever a job specification calling for the DBA. More often than not, (as long as it does not "overqualify" and exclude the applicant), it will be seen as a welcome plus, but not a requirement. Given this, really the most important value of a DBA, then, is the personal gratification and validation that someone gains in mid- or late career from pursuing this degree as part of lifelong learning.

Finally, I would say if someone is convinced DL cannot be of any value, or that RA is alpha-omega, or is dismissive of any program that can be accomplished in less than three years, or even plans on taking seven years to do it, or wants a different learning model, so be it. One thing we can't debate is free choice.

David A. April
BA, University of Massachusetts at Amherst
MBA, Boston College
ACM, Boston College
DBA, California Pacific University
CM, Institute of Certified Professional Managers
C.A.M., Institute of Certified Professional Managers
CRM, Institute of Certified Records Managers

 

Re: Diasagree!

You may find it interesting to examine the California Pacific University DBA program as a point of reference in your research of distance learning doctoral programs.

Write me if you have further questions.

Best wishes,

Dave

 

Dr. Dave,

I’m about to finish a DBA program at an Australian university. It took me about a year to put together a decent dissertation proposal that was accepted by the University after few trials and I should take into consideration that I work at a University and have some research experience. How is it possible to complete a meaningful dissertation in few months part time? Even if it is industry related, just data collection for any research problem may take months to do.

I doubt that one-year part time program can prepare a graduate to do any real research work. This skill takes years to develop and you can’t fill it up with a quick degree.

If you want just the right to be called Dr, the CPU or any other unaccredited university degree can do it for you, but this will be just a “vanity” degree that wouldn’t prepare you for a real research job. DBA or PhD graduates should have the skills to prepare and defend research projects at the highest level, otherwise their education is worthless. If the only use of a DBA is to impress your customers and employer then the quick degree can be a solution. I don’t doubt that you leaned something in one year of study, the same way you would have learned if have read a book or pursued a certificate program at a continuing education department, but the label “Dr” has lost its value and reduced to another title in your list of credentials.

 

Which Australian university?

Thanks,

Dave

 

RFValve:

First, let me say that never once have I been called upon to defend my degree.
I believe you made at least one erroneous assumption and also failed to read or misread some of the statements that I made in my post, so let me reiterate.

1. You missed the point entirely that I did not do a research dissertation. I did a thesis. That is, I took original source material, existing theory and commentary, and in the thesis process arranged and integrated it in novel and insightful ways to better illuminate the topic and to suggest areas for further research. Unlike a dissertation, there is no requirement in a thesis to create new knowledge for the field. At your Australian university, obviously a dissertation is required and you are going that route. You've made that choice to meet your specific needs and those of the program. Great!

2. You're statement that my degree does not prepare me to be a researcher is inapplicable. Yes, as part of course work I took research methodology along with statistics. Plus, earlier at the Fielding Institute, I completed the Inquiry and Research knowledge area, so have been subjected to that routine twice actually. But the reason your statement is inapplicable in my case is that I'm a senior level executive, not a researcher! If I need research, I can hire a PhD on contract to do the design, data gathering and analysis. I know enough about methodology to ask all the right questions, to raise challenges, and to interpret the results and presentation. Again, the Cal-Pacific DBA is a professional, not an academic degree. It is aimed at practical application of theory in the field--not research, not teaching.

3. Your opinion of the Cal-Pacific DBA is just that--an opinion based on your assumptions to which you're certainly entitled. Obviously, I don't share that point of view. Nor would I ever agree that somehow my DBA diminishes the value of my other credentials. That is unsubstantiated conjecture on your part, nothing more.

Best of luck in finishing your program.

 

I don't think that your DBA diminishes your other credentials. On the contrary, it shows interest for updating your knowledge.

My only concern is that CPU's DBA shouldn't be called a doctorate but a post master's certificate or diploma. I don't debate that the graduate can achieve an extra level of knowledge . However, any good DBA program would require a dissertation and not just a final project or mini-thesis.

Again, some argue that the market of MBAs is saturated and there is a need for a higher degree that should be more professional oriented. However, the DBA is still seen as a credential that prepares graduates for research based positions at either industry or academia.

I'm sure that you don't require such skills in your present job, however, I assume that you decided to complete the DBA program as an extra credential that could put you in the edge in your present job. I agree that with so many "out of the closet" MBAs, the market eventually will require higher education for management positions.

 

Dr Dave: "I did a thesis. That is, I took original source material, existing theory and commentary, and in the thesis process arranged and integrated it in novel and insightful ways to better illuminate the topic and to suggest areas for further research. Unlike a dissertation, there is no requirement in a thesis to create new knowledge for the field. At your Australian university, obviously a dissertation is required and you are going that route."

As described your 'thesis' reads like a MSc thesis: 'an original appication of existing knowledge' (a Bachelor's is a 'proof of competence in existing knowledge'). I am not commenting on the quality of your 'thesis', only its place in the degree hierarchy.

The difference between a dissertation and a thesis you allude to I do not recognise. A PhD by thesis is an 'original application of original knowlege that adds to the knowledge base'. It is what would be required for an academic post. It would have been 'defended' viva voce in a session with qualified examiners.
Its title alone would be clear as to its level; the literature review would define its scope, or lack therefof; and its 'thesis' would eb subject to rigorous testing by people who know what they are testing, any one of more of whom may profoundly disagree with the candidate's conclusions if it is challenging accepted notions in the knowledge base.

The PhD is for professional researchers. The DBA has to have the same standard of rigour and it must contribute to the knowledge base, must be based on the literature review of existing knowledge of the subject area, and it must have a 'thesis'. The DBA is for research professionals whose domain is not academic but in the world of business management. It would not pass its defence to say when questioned about a research methodology that you got this done by some hired quantitative geeks. If you use something in the thesis you had better know about it. The examiners would know about the subject area and would not be happy if it is methodologically unsound, had ignored some necessary 'tests', was not familiar with similar work elsewhere (the literature review) and had only 'put new wine in old bottles'.

My impression of the proliferation of DBAs around the world is that there is a dilution of standards taking place which will discredit eventually the award. This is inevitable given the demand to differentiate MBAs from each other and the ptoential revenues involved. It is what happens to any valued currency - the bad drives out the good.

Hence, the as inevitable reliance on a surrogate test for'quality' - which institution did you do your degree at? And, as that 'test' is often exposed on this board in the endless discussions on DETC, RAs, phoney 'accredditations', Royal Charters, and 'top ten' universities, etc., there is no worthwhile conclusion - ever.

 

Interesting hypothesis... DBA Dilution of Standards = fn (DBA Market Demand)

However, would you consider the possibility that there is no cause and effect between demand and dilution of standards in DBA training in many schools?

Might we also consider that academics in other parts of the world might be drawing potentially meaningful distinctions between the training professional researchers and researchers in business?

Still, given that the EBS DBA seems to have a somewhat narrow coverage of quantitative methods (i.e., given a quick look at the compulsory courses in the study elements), it might not qualify for AACSB accreditation, which is the premiere business school accreditation here in the States. Is this a dilution of standards to meet market demand? Hardly, but one could reach that conclusion by using your hypothesis.

Some thoughts to consider...

Best wishes,

Dave

 

RFValve--

I cannot agree that the CPU DBA ought to be called a "post master's certificate". I earned one of those previously, the Advanced Certificate in Management (ACM) at Boston College. The program was aimed at MBAs who had graduated 10 or more years previously. The content consisted of five courses and a series of integrative seminars and papers.

By contrast, the CPU DBA requires 12 courses, a proposal, doctoral project, and proctored comprehensive exam. How could one possible equate an advanced certificate (as I just described) with the broader and more demanding DBA program requirements I just mentioned? Nor do I think a diploma would capture the essense of that either, as most of those are on the bachelor's level.

You didn't mention DM programs, but I believe they focus mostly on the leadership, management, human resources, and organizational behavior and development aspects of business--i.e., the human side of enterprise. The DBA, to the contrary, covers the same wide spectrum as an MBA; so reclassifing the professional DBA as a DM would likewise be totally inaccurate in my opinion. Quite simply, as already stated, the Cal-Pacific DBA is a professional, NOT an academic DBA.

Please note too that in none of my postings have I ever made an assertion that this DBA is on the same par as the Harvard, Boston University, or other academic DBA program such as the one in which you are enrolled in Australia. The fact is, it's not! That's why I keep cautioning that this program is not designed for everyone, and cannot meet everyone's goals and needs. For a senior executive, however, it is an ideal program in the many ways I have already explained in earlier posts. And you are quite right in your point, that with the MBA saturation in the marketplace, an added credential does become a differentiator.

 

Originally posted by RFValve



Dr. Dave,

I’m about to finish a DBA program at an Australian university.


Run Forest, run!. Like someone had said in the past in this forum, a doctorate program is like a marathon race that requires plenty of endurance. If you persevere, you will win and if you don't, you will lose. I am happy that you are inching closer to the end of the journey.


It took me about a year to put together a decent dissertation proposal that was accepted by the University after few trials and I should take into consideration that I work at a University and have some research experience. How is it possible to complete a meaningful dissertation in few months part time? Even if it is industry related, just data collection for any research problem may take months to do.

I doubt that one-year part time program can prepare a graduate to do any real research work. This skill takes years to develop and you can’t fill it up with a quick degree.

If you want just the right to be called Dr, the CPU or any other unaccredited university degree can do it for you, but this will be just a “vanity” degree that wouldn’t prepare you for a real research job. DBA or PhD graduates should have the skills to prepare and defend research projects at the highest level, otherwise their education is worthless. If the only use of a DBA is to impress your customers and employer then the quick degree can be a solution. I don’t doubt that you leaned something in one year of study, the same way you would have learned if have read a book or pursued a certificate program at a continuing education department, but the label “Dr” has lost its value and reduced to another title in your list of credentials.

I totally agree.

Ike Okonkwo, Ph.D.

 

I wrote: "This is inevitable given the demand to differentiate MBAs from each other and the ptoential revenues involved. "

Leading Dave to form the function:

"Interesting hypothesis... DBA Dilution of Standards = fn (DBA Market Demand)"

My statement incorporated two elements, which I did not elaborate upon at the time:

"the demand to differentiate MBAs" AND "the potential revenues involved". The relationship is more complex.

These statements refer to two different forces. There is a market for DBAs from people with MBAs because of unclear differentiation in quality of their outputs (how good are they in post-MBA jobs coming as they do from 2,500 different universities).

There is a market for the supply of DBAs from increasing numbers of universities and it is to these universities that the 'potential revenues' are driving the process. As I help run a Business School I tend to speak from this side of the fence not that of the consumers.

It is from the supply side that the tendency to dilute standards emanates in pursuit of revenues. As students tend to be driven by the least difficult way to qualify, those universities that wish to grow quickly in the DBA market and who are in charge of quality, are vulnerable to the tendency to dilute their offerings. From observation, including this thread, I noted the basis of my comments - DBAs in 12 months, what appear to be Master's level dissertations not doctorates, etc.

Given the DBA's emphasis on research methods - three full compulsory courses on this subject, including the rigourous literature review and the parts of the 12 taught courses involving quantitative work - I cannot recognise a weakness in our quantitative methods.

However, unlike many other Business Schools (including some AACSB schools) all our exams and solutions are placed in the public domain plus the Textual materials are placed in the public domain for peer evaluation. This has existed for years in the MBA programmes and will be followed by the DBA programme (which started yesterday). In due course, peers can judge this impression you have.

I thank you for raising this issue.

Kind regards

Gavin

 

OK, allow me to recap your hypotheses:

First malformed hypothesis: DBA Dilution of Standards = fn (DBA Market Demand)"

Second parsimonious hypothesis: DBA Dilution of Standards = fn (DBA Business School Pursuit of Revenues)

So are you saying that DBA Business School Pursuit of Revenues is a mediating variable or a moderating variable in the relationship between DBA Market Demand and DBA Dilution of Standards? Right? How would you operationalize the independent variable DBA Business School Pursuit of Revenues? Nominal, ordinal, interval or ratio? For that matter how would you operationalize your original independent variable DBA Market Demand? Nominal, ordinal, interval or ratio?

Moreover, how are you operationalizing the dependent variable DBA Dilution of Standards? From your essay it seems that you are confusing differences in DBA standards with weaknesses in DBA standards... Would you measure the dependent variable as nominal, ordinal, interval or ratio? What unit of analysis would you use? Institution? Regional accrediting body? National ministry of education?

As just an observation, the validity of your argument seems to rest on the construct validity of the dependent variable... Without a clear operationalization of the effect/criterion, the cause/predictor in your proposed research can't be investigated properly, which might mean that you've drawn an erroneous conclusion. My opinion...

Best wishes,

Dave

 

Dave

It would of relevance to know which Business School you work for/manage/run? How many DBA programmes you have designed, compared with others in the market, and have conducted comparisons in their structure, taught/ thesis or dissertation balance, duration and supervision? Indeed, just to get an idea of how much of your ‘opinion’ is credible, how many doctoral students you have supervised?

I do not consider your attempts to show the complexity of the arguments of the functions you wish attribute to me and then to construct and test are sufficient to show you do or do not know what you are talking about.

There is a range of doctoral programmes leading to DBAs (as there is for MBAs) and there is a veritable explosive growth of them globally, some from Schools, which appear to have chosen to dilute standards (duration and supervision) in the search for students. I have commented on this, though I am by no means saying that there is no room for innovative production functions (given our record in building a programme around such innovations, I would be interested professionally to learn from such innovations as we have missed).

It is not students who dilute standards but faculty. Given the relatively high minimum cost of the inputs into doctoral programmes (supervision is a main one) and the high prices people are prepared to pay to enrol into them, faculty by squeezing the former hope that their Schools will grow rich on the latter. Fine but depends on how far it is taken. Across so many institutions in different jurisdictions, attempting to define a single testable function to capture and explain the relationships involved may be heroic, though this does not preclude a hypothesis of the connection between bandwagon jumping by faculty to generate income and the passing off of their short duration, relatively unchallenging ‘DBA’ programmes to a segment of the student market who are anxiously seeking the doctoral title and who are not too fussy about its quality.

You do not agree that standards are being diluted in some DBA programmes, or perhaps you do? You suggest I may be in error in my assessment as to a cause of this, a proposition of which I cannot do other than agree that I may be. If dilution is not supplier motivated, perhaps you can suggest what else is causing it; of course, if there is no significant dilution then my assertion falls. (Is that what this is all about – your DBA?)

As part of a team that has invested considerable resources recently in developing a DL DBA programme, and knowing something about postgraduate DL programmes, their delivery, administration, supervision, assessment and quality assurance, I am confident that my assertion stands that what was described as a DBA in this thread appears to be more like a Master’s level programme. I may be wrong, it may be the highest-level doctoral programme on the planet and it may be an excellent programme for those who pay and take it. From what was written, though, in my opinion it may not pass muster in a reputable university.

 

Others on this board have asserted that doctoral standards have been diluted by using what seems to be exception fallacy (i.e., group conclusions based on individual cases) and ecological fallacy (i.e., conclusions about individual cases based group data). The unit of analysis seems to change whimsically! Since many writers seem to be spouting opinions because of these apparent logic errors, the thought has crossed my mind that it would be interesting for the writer to actually examine the school to which they are referring or perhaps someone should conduct some scientific inquiry, drawing a sample and collecting data.

I don't know whether DBA dilution of standards has occurred. You purported to know. I disassembled your argument to discover whether you had researched your proposition or had constructed the proposition so that the problem could be researched. I'm still not sure whether you have researched the problem or could research the problem without further work on your proposition, as you haven't defined your dependent variable (i.e., DBA Dilution of Standards) and how you would measure it. The confusion seems to rest in notion that differences in academic standards should be classified as weaknesses in academic standards. Since it is highly preferable to operationalize your variables carefully before drawing a sample and collecting data (and drawing a conclusion), I raise this point.

Consider that the EBS DBA looks like a fine program, but you may want assess whether the program meets or exceeds AACSB-accreditation standards, as that would make it extremely marketable here in the States as a DL DBA. Most academic jobs in State universities and leading private universities seem to be AACSB or headed toward it, often requiring interviewees to possess a doctorate produced under that process. (By the way, I have some suggestions for the copy on the EBS DBA web pages, so if you'll write me offline, I'll send them to you.)

Best wishes,

Dave