Science, 'frauds' trigger a decline in atheism

I can't understand what you're saying here. What LGM are predicted by my theory? I'm not suggesting you're missing the point, I'm just trying to figure out what your point is--I may not be bright enough or informed enough on the subject matter to grasp it!

Reminds me of a conversation I once heard between two astrophysics students 20 or so years ago in UG: "You know, for all we know it could be a LGM in outer space throwing balls of radiation at us."

 

I think I might understand Orson's point (definately a first, if true!)

If the Universe is "fine tuned" to produce life, then it should produce life all over the place, not just on earth.

I don't know. We haven't seen ANY hard evidence of life on other planets, let alone in other star systems. We seem to be alone.

But it's awfully hard to LOOK. And it does seem improbable, if life spontaneously generates, that we WOULD be alone.

 

You assume that past gods are more easily dismissed as the Judeo/Christian. These gods were, in the past, exactly as real to their believers as the Judeo-Christian God. So is Buddha, Krishna, etc. Most philosophy, except strains like logical positivism, admits concepts like "reality" and different levels of reality. Science -- more strictly speaking, hard science, not the social sciences -- simply does not concern itself with these questions. Do unicorns exist? Does God exist? Is torturing puppies morally wrong? You can try to prove or disprove these using common sense, but not by using the scientific method.

 

Carl makes an interesting objection.

Qvatlanta seems to be using the word 'God' to refer to various philosophical deus-ex-machina functions, such as first cause. While Carl is using 'God' in a more historical manner to refer to that Yahweh character who's so prominent in the Bible.

That highlights the fact that even if the philosophical theistic "proofs" were convincing (I don't think that they are), they would point to an abstraction, defined only by its function in the proof.

But as many religious people have pointed out, the 'God of the philosophers' isn't necessarily identical to the 'God of faith'. To get plugged into the latter, you need revelation, the holy spirit, or whatever it is in whatever religion that you are proposing to have faith in.

Being an agnostic, I have this third category between 'true' and 'false'. Maybe I would call it 'maybe'.

Actually I see 'true' and 'false' as idealized abstractions, as poles towards which our inquiries hopefully gravitate. But in real life, we are normally faced with probabilities. Things are usually uncertain.

So I put all kinds of things, like UFOs, ESP, ghosts, crop-circles and... yes... Yahweh into a category of things that remain remotely possible, but not likely enough to justify any action from me at the present time. Things safely ignored. I suppose that I would put Zeus, Vishnu, Osiris, Thor and countless heavenly Boddhisattvas into the same file drawer.

I can't disprove any of it, but I see no convincing evidence for any of it either.

But these religious and para-religious beliefs interest me for historical, psychological and sociological reasons. Even if the grey aliens are a myth, the flying-saucer-faith remains fascinating as a new inchaoate quasi-religion all dressed up as "science" for the 21'st century.

Mostly because many of the people who are motivated to attempt philosophical proofs of God are trying to buttress their own faith against skeptical doubts. And at least here in the West, most of those people are Christians. So the answer to your question is: an accident of history.

 

I once read a fascinating analysis -- I think it might have been Jung, but I can't remember -- about the role of UFOs as it relates to fairies.

- They are like humans, but more sophisticated and intelligent.
- They can be benevolent and aid humans with special gifts, heal sicknesses, perform miracles
- They can be malevolent and curse livestock
- They like to abduct humans, especially babies
Many more parallels I can't remember. Almost every culture has some kind of fairy race belief, not just Western/Celtic.

For all the skeptics out there who wonder why the hell an advanced race of aliens would scoot around the planet mutilating cattle and stealing babies instead of doing the sensible thing and contacting political leaders and the press... it's simply because they have taken over the role of fairies in the 20th century post-industrial world.

 

Now that I look at it, I assume that is his point. However, there's no reason to assume that because the strong nuclear force and other basic forces of the universe must be extraordinarily fine-tuned to allow for even the remote possibility of life, that this necessarily implies that life would be springing up everywhere. This is a false paradox.

What we have is a situation where certain forces of nature must be JUST SO or life wouldn't be possible at all, matter as we know it wouldn't be possible, the universe would be chaos, pure energy, whatever, not just a bunch of empty planets, but literally no building blocks at the atomic level to create planets, at least if the strong nuclear were too weak. But that still doesn't mean LGM will be popping up everywhere, because even after you have those basic forces of nature lining up perfectly--which we do--it's still extremely unlikely that the matter that forms after the creation will be such as to be hospitable to life on any given bit of matter.

 

Well, it was Orson's point, if indeed I got it right in the first place. I've already posted on this line of thinking and will say no more.

 

A very interesting read (the book, not the website).

http://www.caseforacreator.com/home.php

 

One night while floating on the Atlantic Ocean there was a clear night. I saw countless stars that took my breath away. The ever expanding universe, planets, stars, the Milky Way. A streaking star through the nights' sky. While in great awe of the mystery of the universe; I thought to myself how could there not be an intelligent designer? How could this be just a chance miracle accident from the Big Bang theory? We have a Sun that is close to us to give us heat. The night sky displays stars that give us stories to tell our families. Also from Mercury to Pluto..the so called Planet X and beyond. What else is out there in this great universe? I suppose that question is what makes us great explorers and pioneers of the space age. The incredible ability to search and seek for the truth, and we shall find it one day. I don't have any scientific proofs or mathematical expertise to share, but what I see is indeed more complex than even the most ingenious mind. If you ever are out on the ocean on a ship in the night sky; look up and
question what you really believe. Perhaps many of you have done this already. As for the other post basically saying an omnipotent God has limitations..I disagree in a cordial way. I find it interesting that the Bible can confirm science whereas science can never confirm the Bible. Please don't get me wrong I love science. Science as we know it will always be significant to the human race.

cb3

 

I've never understood the "scientific" argument for religion. I, myself, believe in God, for my own reasons. I don't expect anyone else to, because there is no other reason to it but faith and personal experiences. As a matter of fact, I couldn't care less what anyone else's opinion of God is.

On the other hand, I am constantly bombarded by Christians, of which I am not one, who feel the need to inject their beliefs on the whole of society. We live in a country that allows one to follow there own beliefs (well, I see that changing, but currently it is available), live and let live.