Reviewing the Review of the Evaluator: Efficacy of Substandard Education Supporters

Here's a couple more.

Is there at least one diploma mill victim that earned themselves a superior education to at least one RA graduate?

Little doubt that it is true, but it doesn't mean the unaccredited schools can be trusted to give a good education. It only means that one hard working diploma mill victim did more work than was probably required and that one lazy bum got lucky and graduated.

Is there at least one habitually* unaccredited school that is superior to at least one accredited school?

I doubt that it is true. If someone is able to make a good case for a couple of examples, I'd be very interested. Morgan has said that PWU is good perhaps he would like to name an accredited school that he thinks is inferior to PWU or some other habitually unaccredited school*.



*habitually unaccredited means a school that was not created with the intention of getting accredited or has been running for years without starting the accreditation process.

 

Given your analysis, would it be fair to say that a school does not provide a lousy education because it is non-accredited?

Would it also be fair to say that the school might be non-accredited because it provides a lousy education?

I ask because logic could actually strenghten the argument against non-accredited schools. The schools are not "bad" because they are non-accredited but they might be non-accredited because they might be bad. The undeniable point being that accredited schools involve less risk to the student, especially at the undergraduate level, with the possible point that accredited schools provide a better education value for the money as well. In sum, you can prove that non-accredited schools are more risky to the student but you can't prove they are "bad", whatever "bad" means, and that the choice to attend a risky school requires an overwhelmingly good reason.

Best wishes,

Dave

 

If I buy a specific model of automobile and it turns out to be a lemon, perhaps I should not judge all of these same cars as lemons. Would you buy another? As I drive down the highway and pass you, broken down on the shoulder of the road, I'll call you a tow-truck.
Jack

 

There's nothing wrong with your elementary logic, Dave. The problem that you've got, as I see it, is that you're trying to make the entire case based on simple logic when that is unnecessary. You see, the fact is, that it's not a matter of accredited v. unaccredited and it never has been. It's a matter of accountable v. unaccountable. An unaccredited school can easily be seen as being "of quality" by simply being accountable. List the degree requirements, describe in detail the courses, list the faculty and their degrees, make available information regarding alumni, etc. These are all things that reputable schools do and disreputable schools don't do. We all know that there are a few good unaccredited colleges. You are missing the point. We know they're good because you can discern the details about the school, the faculty and the academic programs. What's in question here are the schools that don't provide this information, even when it's requested. According to your logic, maybe one or two of these is actually a decent school and shouldn't be painted with the same broad brush as the others. Maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. The issue is, how is one to know? If there were no other choices I guess you'd just have to grit your teeth, cross your fingers and hope for the best. But in a world where there are many, many alternatives, why would you take the chance?
Your logic is good as far as it goes, the problem is that it just doesn't go far enough.
Jack

 

Hi. One of us missed the point, alrighty, and it was a real simple one... The point was that some of you folks are making incorrect inferences, mistakes that educated people shouldn't be making, and I explained how to correct the inferences quite thoroughly.

Dave

 

OK, thanks for all your help.
Jack

 

... tap, tap, tap, tap ......

How long is .... forever?

Thanks.

 

>>Now, if you’re 18 -40, or just out of high school please go to an accredited university. However, if you’re over 40, have a stable profession, and your career stands on your accomplishments – not your degree – why not? Couldn’t you use that money for retirement, children’s education, etc.? <<

Why not just print a dipolma, buy a gold stamp and save even more money? It would carry as much weight as a dipolma mill copy.

Newbies, Morgan is slinging some serious mule droppings. I have watched this list for three years and found it be a big help in selecting both where I got my BS (COSC) and where I am taking my masters (AMU). I want to teach and despite what some mill shills will say, if you want to teach in any of the 50 states, you better have an RA degree.

By the way, I am 48 and love my job, but I'm ready for a change and learned on this board the smart way to do it.

I have a friend who started her career change before me (same age) only she didn't check things out and is now the proud owner of a worthless, unaccredited AA degree in IT that she paid $10,000 for.

Morgan, can you tell her want she can do with that kind of degree?

 

Yeah. What she said.

 

Truer words that can transform the lives of sincere men and women everywhere (in these, the US of A) have nary been uttered!

Thanks, Deb!

 

My Reply

Here are a few responses. Please forgive me if I overlooked anyone. I appreciate all of your comments, and believe that I have learned from our discussion.

Jack Tracey: “If Morgan ever shows some intestinal fortitude and gives us his list of respectable unaccredited universities then you can pay your money and enroll in one of Morgan's schools.”

Jack, I’ll admit to you that I can’t. Unfortunately, I “have no evidence.” No one has ever funded me to do a study of these schools by either: examining curricula, interviewing alumni, or interviewing faculty. How can I honestly give you a list if I haven’t done a study?

The question is: Does the non-RA IHE require course work, is the degree earned, is the institution recognized in some way by industry, NGOs through partnerships, affiliations, etc.? Here are a couple places that truly do (and I’m going just on their Web Sites and promotional material) meet both prerequisites:

My very short list:
1. Akamai University seems to be aspiring to be a “light on the hill.” (They are just out of the gate though, and I think it would be unfair at this point for anyone to attack them).
2. University of Philosophical Research (UPR), which boasts a very interesting line-up of instructors, and requires 20 courses towards a State of CA approved M.A. in “consciousness studies.” (http://www.uprs.edu/uprprograms.htm)

[Note: I haven’t put Rushmore University on my list because you all have already pummeled them fairly well. I will defer to your judgments. They do, however, seem to require some sort of summative project, which they will help the student get published (since they are not on my list, please don’t attack me.
I haven’t put Kennedy-Western on my list either. But I like the fact that they purchased Blackboard and make copies of some dissertations available.
And I haven’t put PWU on my list.
Clayton seems to be serious about their work in health.]

PLEASE NOTE – I’m NOT defending any ONE school out there. I am defending our NEED to have an alternative to the RA process.

Bill Huffman: “Another might be why Morgan thinks that PWU is a good school or even challenging me on my statement that PWU is a diploma mill.”

Never having been a student there, and not having conducted any studies on them, I can’t say that PWU is a “good school.” However, based solely on their web site and catalog they have the integrity to clearly label themselves as not accredited, that their programs don’t meet licensure, and they seem to require some sort of summative work.

Bill Huffman: What is the difference between a Master's and a doctorate?"

Response: I would argue that a Ph.D. contributes something new to the field, whereas a M.A. demonstrates: (1) an advance understanding of the discipline; and for those completing a written thesis: (2) masterly of academic writing; (3) demonstrated understanding of research methods.

Bill Huffman: “Why is a resume/application sufficient for vast quantities of college credits? I’ve never agreed with non-RA use of life experience.”

Response: I would encourage serious non-RA IHEs to drop life experience and have applicants with sufficient life experience move directly to research and then a summative project. Developing a transcript from their resumes is silly. Three phases: (a) acquaintance with academic style (MLA, Chicago, etc.); (b) understanding of research methods; (c) written dissertation. Forget trying to put life into credits - it just doesn’t work (and it really does count something twice). And, if they don’t have sufficient life experience, either don’t enroll the applicant if your institution can’t provide the course work, or develop the course work and have them do it.

Deb: “Newbies, Morgan is slinging some serious mule droppings. I have watched this list for three years and found it be a big help in selecting both where I got my BS (COSC) and where I am taking my masters (AMU). I want to teach and despite what some mill shills will say, if you want to teach in any of the 50 states, you better have an RA degree.”

Response: If you want use your degree to enter academia, don’t go to an unaccredited university. RA is a club, acts like a club, and won’t allow non-club members in. BTW: If you go to my post on PWU you’ll see that their counselors warned me in 1989 not to attend PWU if I wanted to work in academia.

Uncle Janko: (Off topic) To Bill Dayson: “could you PM me some suggested readings in postmodern literary theory?”

My suggestion (apologies for jumpin in): Start with John Caputo before going to Foucault and Derrida.

BTW: Here's a little fun note to end this post on:

Dear friends,



In the interlude between my last post and today I am happy to report that I have opened a small store front business in Boston, called “Esquire’s Academic Counseling Services,” located on the corner of Harvard Street and Poison Ivy Avenue. We offer counseling to anyone who is shopping for an appropriate IHE. Of course, we’ve managed to sell lots of Bear’s Guide, along with espresso. Here are a few of the clients we’ve served (I’ve deleted their names because of privacy).

L and W would like to learn alternative health modalities. They intend to be a healers, and are interested in herbs, vitamins, and other alternative systems. We recommended Clayton.

B and C are interested in philosophy, religion, physics, alternative thought. They read a lot of books in the field, but would like a more structured learning approach. We recommended the Philosophical Research University’s “Consciousness Studies Program” (http://www.uprs.edu/uprconstudies.htm). The program boasts several interesting line up of faculty. UPR is approved by the state of CA to confer a M.A. degree.

J. entered the workforce in the 1960s, starting off as a machine tool operator, moving up to draftsmen. He took a few community college courses, but never went on. He did a four year “in-house” apprenticeship as a machinist, and went on to become a tool and die maker. Five years ago he was promoted to shop foreman, and last year he entered the circle of upper management. He supervises over 30 machinists, tool and die makers, and engineers. He doesn’t have time to take any course, nor would he benefit much from them since he is an expert in the field. He would, however, enjoy the opportunity to test himself, though, by writing a thesis. We recommended he contact Kennedy-Western.

25 years ago P’s thesis in international relations was rejected. She had a conflict with his advisor that they couldn’t resolve. For the past 10 years she has been teaching full-time at a community college. Prior to that, she worked for 5 years as a high school political science instructor. She would like to complete his thesis, but isn’t interested in sitting with a bunch of young “whips” in their late twenties. We recommended Pacific Western University. (Before you scream because someone’s thesis was rejected, I would remind you that Karen Armstrong, one of the top religious studies writers in the world, had her thesis rejected, too).


In all of these cases we emphasized that people should request the “summa cum laude” track, meaning that they demand (will even pay more for additional faculty work load) to have a finished product (i.e. dissertation) that does not pass unless it is judged equal to that of many RA schools. We also told them that they need to communicate their commitment of excellence to their advisors. We hope that these non-RA schools would be more than happy to have a finished product that they can “show off.” If the non-RA won't go with them down the rougher path, and wants an easy way out, head in the opposite direction.

Best,

Morgan

 

Reply to Other Points

Here are some replies to earlier points I've picked out of this thread that I haven't responded to.


* If an unaccredited degree has no commercial value, why pursue one? What’s its value? Why not just do it on your own?

I know several people who hold an M.A., were in a Ph.D. program at a major university, and for personal reasons (need to work, interpersonal conflicts with their advisor, demands of family, or their dissertation was rejected,* etc.) had to break off their studies. Twenty years later it may be impossible to go back and start over. They may feel that they don’t fit to the culture of the university. (Most of you know how aggressive the atmosphere at that level of academia can be). And yet something has been left undone in their life. These people might be ideally served in a “non-traditional university setting.”


--
* So why not do it on your own? Why do you need an institution?

Rather than just learning on their own (nothing wrong with that), a non-RA setting provides an opportunity for feedback. I would expect that legitimate non-RA institutes will attempt to match you with advisors who are also professionally engaged in your field, defined as having one or more of the following characteristics: they attend professional conferences, they publish, they teach at RA schools, they are an emeritus from an RA school, they have earned the highest degree in the field from an RA school (or available for your review from a non-RA school).

--
* Don’t non-RA degrees devalue the worth of RA degrees?

Once again, my answer is no. The U.S., unlike most countries, has a peculiar social method of “ranking” colleges and universities. Since the general public isn’t very informed of the difference between RA and self-governing schools, the value of your RA degree is based on your affiliation with a particular school.

I would be far more concerned about the problem of grade inflation and the high numbers of students who do minimal work and still achieve a degree. As most of you know, few employers ask to see transcripts, or a report on GPA.

(As a side bar: I have heard horror stories from acquaintances who teach at elite private colleges. Students often show up to class hung-over from sorority parties. Their writing is atrocious. They often don’t study, etc. If you have taught, or are teaching, you know that you, as an instructor, must be constantly on-guard against cheating and plagiarism. The Internet has many sites that sell term papers. Students have become notorious at copying and pasting from the Web, purchasing papers, etc.

Several years ago a friend of mine was called before the Dean. A student had challenged the poor grade he had received. The instructor defended himself, and won the case. But many instructors are intimidated by the high number of students who will challenge a D or C grade by going to the administration, and thus grade upwards. Also, if you are a tough grader, your student numbers will drop. Student evaluation is weighed heavily in considering a RA teachers promotion. Needless to say, tough graders risk rough student evaluations. I was told by one faculty member (assistant professor who now worked at the same IHE he had received his B.A. from) that several years ago he gave a term paper to one of his undergraduate professor. He asked the full professor to grade the paper, saying he wasn’t sure what he should give it. The senior professor did, and gave it a A-. The younger prof was shocked. 15 years ago he had received a C-.

In my opinion, the struggle against devaluation of RA degrees begins within the RA community.

--

* Is vanity the only reason for getting an unaccredited degree?

No. Certainly, vanity is a part of the reason. But that could just as easily be said of many people who achieve an RA degree. Outside of a limited number of fields, anything higher than a B.A. (or in certain cases a M.A.) really isn’t needed to achieve career advancement. I would say that if you aren’t in scientific research or teaching in academia, and you hold a Ph.D., you have probably achieved that degree for your self-edification.

(With regards to vanity: isn’t that what we humans are about, part of what makes us interesting? You know who I’m talking about. All of you who buy SUVs and 4 wheel drive jacked up pick-ups (but live in urban settings), you sports car owners, 6 day a week tread mill riders, Botox and Rogaine users, etc. etc. - forgive the humor!).

--

* Should people requiring an entry level degree or state licensure save time and money by going to an unaccredited institution?

No. If you are starting your career, or need licensure, please go to an accredited university or college.

I look forward to your comments.

Morgan

 

From earlier in the thread . . .

MK - The more likely scenario is that the holder of the unaccredited degree - (e.g. PWU) - is in a supervisory position and will be the one making the hiring decision, while the applicant will be a holder of an accredited degree. It's rarely going to be an HR decision of which of the two candidates to select. (I could also imagine an HR person with an unaccredited degree deciding between two RA candidates).

JT - Your "more likely scenario" is nothing of the sort. Just because you say it's more likely doesn't make it so. If you can demonstrate that it's more likely then please do so, otherwise this is just an example of "morgan-spin." As for HR making hiring decisions, frequently (especially in BIG corporations) all apllicant's resumes go through HR before even reaching the supervisory person who makes THE decision. HR may not make the final decision but frequently they screen all applicants. The unaccredited degree holders may just wind up in the circular file before the interviews even start. As for your imagination, your ability to imagine things means nothing. If you'd like to get into a "possible worlds" debate then go to the off-topics forum and start a thread.

MK - The legitimacy of an unaccredited degree depends on your own individual commitment to excellence.

JT - A degree is a public symbol of the completion of a specified amount of academic work. A person may be quite knowledgable and yet not have a degree. They might be brilliant and yet not have a degree. Having a degree means having satisfied certain specific criteria. These criteria have been defined as a part of our social contract so that people have a common understanding when the term "Bachelors degree," or "Masters degree" is used. When a degree is unaccredited it means, in the vast majority of cases, that these criteria have not been met and the social contract is broken. Frequently, this makes the degree "granter" and the degree "earner" both liars.

MK - By analogy, if you play tennis, and I say that your game is only as good as you make it, does that mean that you shouldn't practice? Isn't it possible to set high expectations for oursellf outside of the RA institutional process?

JT - Tennis is a game played by a well defined set of rules, on a court of specific and precise dimensions. These rules and dimensions are universal. You can set your expectations as high as you like but you need to play by the rules and you need to play on a regulation sized court or else you're not really playing tennis. You're just hitting a ball with a racquet.

MK - How can I honestly give you a list if I haven't done a study?

JT - How can you honestly hold an opinion in this matter if you haven't done a study? It's all just philosophical hot air.

MK - I would expect that legitimate non-RA institutes will atempt to match you with advisors who are also professionally engaged in your field.

JT - Yes, that would be a good start, but since you haven't done a study then you can't really assure anyone that this is actually occurring at any of these unaccredited schools. More hot air.

The funny thing is that you might actually have earned that MA at HUX. Your arguments are all abstract, not related to the real world and seem to be based on little more than your philosophical imagination.
Jack

 

Re: My Reply

Morgan - despite all your blather I'd not want you to run afoul of the forum TOS. I believe it's against the local rules to advertise your business on the forum. Otherwise, I'd say that it seems more than a bit ironic that you've elected to set up a business in the city that, perhaps more than any other, epitomizes the highest standards of academia, and that you plan on promoting unaccredited degrees. I assume that someone in the organization actually has some credentials that qualify them to be giving out such advice. What I'd most like to know, however, is, will you be putting your "unaccredited" PhD on your "Esquire's..." business cards? How long until someone "makes inquiries?"

Jack

 

Khanstein (for everyone ever called Hun?),

I'm curious as to your opinion of the Virtual University.

 

Sir Jack Tracey:

I fear that you have dealt the final blow,
drawing forth my blood to flow.

To all you RA Knights and Zealots I do say:
Let your swords not rust, and your shields not turn to dross
For there shall come a time when ours shall surely cross,
- where there shall be no room for play.

And to all you newbies who have seen our light,
and who have wept at our plight:
Do not live in dread - for we shall meet within another thread.

And to you Dr. Latin Juris do I say:
Speak the Truth
Beware their bile
These women and men
Who
When all else fails
Resort to ad hominem

Now stand fast this round –
dear friend -
And one last time
Defend this hallowed unaccredited ground.

Adieu

 

MK-Seek Help.

 

I don't get a goodbye? After all I've done for you?

 

That was one truly strange person. Wonder what they were on? Or not on?

Deb