Religion & Respect for the Doctorate

CAUTION: Silly scenario follows

If a person obtains a bachelors, a masters and a doctorate in something -- in anything but theology -- and then they later become an ordained minister: They can still be called "doctor."

How well does this sit with you?

 

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Sounds fine to me...The right reverend dr. grover...cool

 

People would think that the good doctor/minister is extremely knowledgable about theology!

 

I think it is fine because the doctorate is seperate. I know of an Episcopal clergyman who has a PhD in Nuclear Physics (?) and he is referred to as Rev. Dr.

Incidentally, I would prefer Dr. So and So to Rev. Dr.
The Rev Dr. is too much and often these days means someone without an accredited doctorate. The denomination of my birth (Anglican) was a little overboard in this regard eg. The Rt. Reverend Dr. Phillip Exeter Haversham IV or the Venerable Dr. Philip Exeter Moncreath Haversham III.

North
North

 

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and I think those people would be right, but my UZ supervisor might right now disagree, in my case, that is!!

 

Wrong!!!

One must be right in one's theology to use the title The Right Rev. Dr. John Doe.

Otherwise its The Wrong Rev. Dr. John Doe.

 

Isn't someone with the title Right Reverend, a Bishop, most specifically of the Church of England.

Bishops sat in the House of Lords. Most Lords and members of the Privy Council are entitled Right Honourable.

Obviously, while bishops may be reverent, they do not appear to be honourable.

 

Gotta agree with North on Rev. Dr.--it seems almost like a contradictory pair of titles, since Rev. should suggest humility and Dr. should suggest objectivity. The only person I regularly call Rev. Dr. is Martin Luther King. Well, and Goldblatt, but that's a given.


Cheers,

 

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was kidding Dennis!

 

I suspected. Just a gratuitous history lesson.

 

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Frequently "Revs" are less than humble and "Drs" are less than objective. I think (and hope) the man or woman fills the title not the title the person. The contradiction may exist between the person and what he/she is called , but perhaps not in possible extrications from possible meanings of titles.
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You are correct. I was brought up Anglican. Certain people were Most Reverend and others were Rt. Rev (Archbishops??). The Venerable is a title given to Archdeacons who are not a higher form of deacon but a priest given special charge over a deanery (?) part of a diocese. Then you get to be The Venerable Dr. Fitzhugh. The titles are becoming fuzzy now as time fades them into the background.

The titles that crack me up are the ones you see when you read Charisma Magazine. Some charismatic groups call people Apostles. I once read a letter to the editor (??) where an *Apostle* was insisting that the Pastor in the church should yield to him because he was higher and had more spiritual authority because the other dude was just a Pastor. My reaction was ....Yuk. Talk about temporal power struggles.

North

 

I thought of something else with regard to religious titles.

Some clergy 'Reverends' are called 'Pastor' or 'Father' depending on the denomination. Pastors are Reverends but not all Reverends are pastors. I knew a number of ordained clergy (Reverends) who had nothing to do with pastoring as they were in what we called 'Ad-ministry' (ie Administrative Ministry). For some of them this truly was their niche as others found one in counseling and still others 'pastoring' a flock.

North

 

If I recall, bishops of the C of E are called right rev & right hon because of the House of Lords business. Ambrose Bierce once said that an archbishop was an ecclesiastic who outranked Christ (called in the NT "chief bishop & shepherd of our souls"). Hey, it gives 'em something to do on the weekend.

 

Let us get this right!

Most, not all, titles used by churches these days go back in history to the Church of Rome and the Anglican Church. For example, in the UK the title 'Your Grace' can only be used by a duke or Duchess and also by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Archbishop of York and yet, under certain cirucumstances the two Archbishops take precedence at official affairs of state over senior members of the Royal Family!

In the Church of England/Anglican Church (and I'm going to miss one or two things our here) when you are ordained you become 'The Reverend so and so - e.g. The Revd Joe Bloggs'. If you have a 'recognized' doctorate (in any subject) you would be The Revd Dr Joe Bloggs. If you become canon in a catherdral or are made an honorary canon you'd become the Revd Canon Joe Bloggs or the Revd Dr Canon Dr Bloggs (if you have a doctorate). If you are promoted to Archdeacon (someone responsible in a diocese for overseeing the clergy - bit more to it that than) you become the Venerable Joe Bloggs (or the Ven. Dr Joe Bloggs). If a person is appointed Dean (or Provost in some cathedrals) you become the Very Reverend Joes Bloggs or the Very Revd Dr Joe Bloggs. If a person becomes a suffragan (assistant) or full diocesan bishop the title is The Right Reverend Joe Bloggs or the Rt Revd Dr Joe Bloggs if he has a doctorate (in any subject). If you are appointed Archbishop of York the title his His Grace The Most Reverend and Right Honorable Joe Bloggs, Archbishop of York and Primate of England. 'Dr' would go in front of Joe if having a doctorate. The Archbishop of Canterbury (they always have a doctorate!) is (currently) His Grace the Most Revd and Rt Honorable Dr George Carey, Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of All England and Metropolitan. The new Archbishop of Canterbury (currently Archbishop of Wales) has a doctorate and was the youngest person (for centuries) to hold one of the world's leading, oldest and most prestigious academic appointments in theology. Aty the age of 36 he was Lady Margaret professor of Divinity at Oxford University.

Hope this helps!

'telfax'

 

Re: Re: Religion & Respect for the Doctorate

Although I am way late in this thread, just wanted th throw this out...

Most ministers that I know in my denomination (Missionary Baptist of an African American Flavor...lol)that use the Rev. Dr. desgination do so because they have been taught that if their doctorate is in the field of ministry/theology then that differentiates them from the medical Dr., educational Dr., etc. All it means that my Dr. is in minstry so do not mistake it for something else...I am not trying to portray myself as a physician, professor, etc., but a minister that happens to also have a doctorate.

I just use my name...I let people make up their mind how they are going to address me...I shy away from any designation...only do I concede to it in formal settings and even then it can get quite annoying...people are going to call me whatever they want to anyway...I prefer (if asked) Minister or Brother...however usually it is...Hey You!!!

 

Re: Re: Re: Religion & Respect for the Doctorate

A pastor I know without a doctorate is usually called by his first name. Another one I know with a doctorate is usually called 'Dr.". Neither are called Reverend. My grandmother (Church of England) referred to the vicar as Mr. Guthrie (when speaking to him) as she felt the use of Reverend to refer to someone was not correct unless written or not referring directly to him. English usage books seem to support this. Nonetheless, it has become an American affectation to refer to Pastors as Reverend when speaking to them.

At any rate there certainly is divergent opinion and there are cultural differences in uses of titles as there are in format etc. And that makes life interesting.

What denomination are you?

North

 

Your grandmother was/is correct!

In England, and specifically when addressing clergy (of any denomination), you would refer to (as an example) the Reverend Joe Bloggs as 'Mr Bloggs'! This is correct, even though people, often, refer to clergy, even when interviewing them on television, as 'Reverend Bloggs'!

A bishop is the Right Reverend (Rt Revd) and an archbishop is Most Reverend. If he has a doctorate, in any discipline, it would then be (for a bishop) the Rt Revd Dr... or for an archbishop (there are only two in England in the Anglican Church [Canterbury and York] the His Grace, Most Revd and Rt Honorable, Dr.......

'telfax'

 

Its saturday, and I'm far too lazy to look up the citations, but two things come to mind: First, those who get their rocks off on being called Doctor are usually the same type who would like to be "sitting in the chief seats of the synagogue." Second, scripture indicates that you should call no man reverend, since only God is reverend. This is the reason that, in Baptist churches especially, the title Pastor is preferred to Reverend.

Finally, kiddies, "The Most Reverend..." is a monsignor, "The Right Reverend..." is a bishop. And "Bishop" by itself, in addition to the Catholic church, is common to many African-American churches in the U.S.

As for me, I'm happy simply being known by "He Who Is."

So, anyone wanna fuck?

 

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I'm becoming inured to such..course I just finished a week at school with the 7th grade kiddies.